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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#12926: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:35:08 PM

[tup] Deadshot and Killer.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12927: Sep 16th 2019 at 1:36:14 PM

Yes to Deadshot and Wesley's dad ie Not Deadshot.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#12929: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:01:51 PM

Sure to these two good fathers.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Sep 16th 2019 at 11:02:33 AM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#12931: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:16:28 PM

Yes to Deadshot and I guess a yea to The Killer.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Sep 16th 2019 at 2:16:34 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#12933: Sep 16th 2019 at 2:53:53 PM

[tup] to Puss In Boots, Deadshot and the Killer.

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#12935: Sep 16th 2019 at 4:50:23 PM

yes to Deadshot and ughh... the Killer... I mean, I guess he didn't explicitly tell his son to grow up to commit rape amongst the other sickening shit Wes gets up to: I'll go with a yeah.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#12936: Sep 16th 2019 at 4:56:40 PM

Sure on Deadshot and the Killer

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#12937: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:10:46 PM

Alright so after giving this guy some thought I decided to take the initiative to EP this guy from the movie Megamind.

What’s The Work?

Megamind is a 2010 American animated superhero comedy film detailing the exploits of the titular super villain Megamind, who is yes the character that I’m proposing today.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Megamind is the Villain Protagonist of the film who first arrived on planet Earth as an infant along with Metro-Man. Megamind would be raised in a prison where after multiple attempts to fit into society would become a super villain and Metro Man’s Arch-Enemy.

Their rivalry expanded into adulthood where Megamind would formulated many complex and stylish plans that always involved kidnapping news reporter Roxanne while Metro Man would stop him at every turn, with Megamind almost winning some battles with Metro Man.

However Megamind would escape his prison by making the Warden look like him, distracting the guards and come up with his most brilliant plan. Megamind uses Roxanne to lure Metro Man into an abandoned observatory where he then uses his death ray to seemingly kill Metro Man. Megamind’s plan would be a success defeating his nemesis but soon realizes that he doesn’t have much of a purpose without a hero to fight.

So Megamind decided to create his own superhero, by injecting Metro-Man’s DNA into Hal Stewart then disguises himself as Hal’s “alien father” to manipulate the guy into becoming a superhero. Unfortunately, Hal decides to become a super villain instead and tries to kill Megamind when he learns of his manipulations and the fact that his Lust Object Roxanne actually likes Megamind.

Forced to flee Metro City and after taking Metro Man’s (whose revealed to be alive BTW) words to heart, he decides to have the city and Roxanne from Hal’s super-villain hissy fit by having Minion disguised as himself while Megamind disguised as Metro-Man drives Hal out of Metro City.

The plan works until Hal learns about this deception again and tries to kill him again. However Megamind comes up with one brilliant plan off the spot where he turns himself into cube in a fountain, out of Hal’s vision, before appearing right before Hal to drain all his newfound powers turning Hal back to normal and sent to prison.Thus after successfully saving the city and Roxanne Megamind decides to become a super hero.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

For intelligence Megamind has genius level intellect whom he uses to create many complex plans and inventions that would go toe to toe with Metro-Man and would actually beat him.

He’s also very cunning, manipulating many people with ease such as the guards whom he trick to attack their own warden, Hal whom he pretends to be his space dad, and Roxanne whom disguised as Bernard manages to get her to fall in love with him (though he would develop feelings for her as well).

As for Charisma Megamind is an absolute show stealer, played by Will Farrel. He always appearing stylish and flamboyant with rock songs playing in the background. He always does his best not to loose his humorous Affably Evil charm even when he looses or faces obstacle where he’ll always think on the fly before making a stylish comeback. He basically defines Evil Is Cool in this film.

What’s The Competition Like?

Megamind is the most brilliant and charismatic character in the movie, with no one coming close, especially Hal whose portrayed as an idiot with severe entitlement issues. While Metro Man does fake his death and was a bully to Megamind, but by adulthood he’s a clear cut superhero only decides to fake his death because he doesn’t want to be a superhero anymore. Selfish yes, but enough to be considered a bastard.

Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?

Okay so Megamind takes pride in being a Card-Carrying Villain, has kidnapped Roxanne many times, enjoys antagonizing Metro Man, has terrorized Metro City with his intellect, and transforms Hal into becoming a super hero for his own selfish reason which leads to Hal becoming a super villain. So yeah he’s a bastard.

That said he has numerous lovable qualities that makes him the most endearing character in the film. He genuinely falls in love with Roxanne over the course of the film and is best friend with his own dragon, Minion, being upset when his leaves him.

He was actually shocked that his latest planned seemingly killed Metro Man being relieve to see his alive and well, and was disgusted that Hal would use his newfound powers to become evil. So yeah not too much of a bastard not to be disqualified.

Final Verdict

I will leave it to you guys

Edited by G-Editor on Sep 16th 2019 at 3:12:00 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12938: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:15:02 PM

Ohhh...I wish I could Upvote there. But I felt he might be to childish?

Abstain.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#12939: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:18:08 PM

Sorry...G buddy but I got to say no there. He is treated as a Butt Monkey throughout the film. He is smart but only in the Gadgeteer Genius kind of way, when it comes to scheming though he's pretty incompetent.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#12940: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:18:38 PM

Ehh....I'm not sure. A big part of Megamind's character is how his schemes almost always backfire on him, despite seeming intelligent on-paper, in addition to him being a bit of a Butt-Monkey.

Why so serious?
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12941: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:19:17 PM

[up][up] that I'd disagree with the "Not good at scheming part" Personally. He is intelligent in the scheming way as shown in his prison break scene.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 16th 2019 at 6:19:41 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#12942: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:22:10 PM

No to Megamind. Butt-Monkey argument aside, the dude has no foresight, like not thinking of the idea that Hal would want to kill him instead of simply sending him to jail after mocking him for being tricked, or not realizing that his mispronounciation of the city would blow his Metro Man disguise

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Sep 16th 2019 at 9:24:45 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#12943: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:24:02 PM

[up][up]Wasn't him breaking out of jail all those times Played for Laughs as it showed how incompetent the overall staff was? It has been a while since I have seen it so I could be wrong.

Edited by username2527 on Sep 16th 2019 at 6:25:24 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12945: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:29:43 PM

[up][up] Naw. The staff is never portrayed as incompetent or anything like that.

Though the other arguments against him are convincing.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#12946: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:33:03 PM

Nah to Megamind although I love the film and the character. No denying his prison plot is great though.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#12947: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:38:00 PM

[tup] Deadshot and Killer

[tdown] Megamind, sadly. His "PRESENTATION!" moment was great stuff.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#12948: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:43:02 PM

Abstain on Megamind.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#12949: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:43:43 PM

No to Megamind. I really wish I could vote yes but I can't.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12950: Sep 16th 2019 at 6:44:59 PM

[tdown]Megamind.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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