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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12801: Sep 10th 2019 at 11:16:42 AM

Ganondorf is tricked by Tabuu. So no there.

Tabuu itself is this strange, alien being that does not possess an identifiable personality. It simply is. So no there.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#12802: Sep 10th 2019 at 11:52:34 AM

I could propose the Narrator from The Stanley Parable but it's implied he's not only insane but not the top dog in the game, not to mention a victim of circumstance and there's going to be a sequel hook in the remastered version. I guess he might be on the wait and see list.

I'm just going to sit back and think hard rather than fish for candidates. I think I've proposed enough for now.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#12803: Sep 10th 2019 at 11:58:53 AM

Yeah the game doesn't even have a clear cut explanation for what's going on, it seems to change depending on what ending is happening. Aside from that he's a bit too petulant to come off as really magnificent imo.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#12804: Sep 10th 2019 at 12:53:11 PM

BTW, if I may chime in: Elementary!Moriarty may be one of those best spoiled completely on the YMMV page.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#12805: Sep 10th 2019 at 2:52:09 PM

Yeah Tabuu doesn’t have enough personality to be a magnificent bastard (sadly it’s the same reason why Leslie Meyers got cut)

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12806: Sep 10th 2019 at 3:16:21 PM

Not... entirely. Leslie has a personality. And dialogue. Tabuu has neither - or at least its personality is practically inscrutable to us. Like with Cthulhu.

Leslie was cut for having a robotic personality. Honestly, I just stayed out of that one.

And let's NOT keep bringing up South Park for barely related reasons. Like, there's no reason to bring up Leslie in relation to Tabuu.

Edited by PolarPhantom on Sep 10th 2019 at 11:17:33 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#12808: Sep 10th 2019 at 6:04:33 PM

Speaking of personalities, does FMA!Scar really have the personality for this trope? He's sympathetic and cool but he's not really personable.

I might be remembering wrong since it's been a while since I watched the original anime.

Edited by papyru30 on Sep 10th 2019 at 7:07:01 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12809: Sep 10th 2019 at 6:45:37 PM

It has been something I've been meaning to ask. I brought up Scar but I didn't effortpost him for the very reason you have given. I think it's possible to have in-universe charm vs out of universe charm. Scar does have the in-universe charm to lead the people of Lior. Ultimately in my mind what makes Scar a super compelling villain is not what makes him a Magnificent Bastard. In addition someone like Wyoming from Red Vs Blue has a lot of in-universe charm but I don't feel has much out-of-universe charm. Someone like GLaDOS from Portal has a lot of out-of-universe charm but not much in-universe. But then again that's just my interpretation of the characters.

Edited by jjjj2 on Sep 10th 2019 at 10:07:47 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#12810: Sep 10th 2019 at 10:08:12 PM

People, I've found and cut yet another unapproved example. This time, we're dealing with Kaeloo:

Having watched the show... I don't think Mr. Cat counts. Make no mistake, he's smart, awesome, manipulative, has a Freudian Excuse, is the only smart character who isn't a Ditzy Genius, is full of redeeming qualities, has genuine affection for his friends (even Quack Quack) and he's definitely a case of Evil Is Cool.

That said? First, the guy's incredibly sadistic, even if it's Played for Laughs. His favourite hobby is to harm and injure Quack Quack in every way possible, which include An Arm and a Leg, Off with His Head!, chainsaws and bazookas, notably. This often leads to him getting his ass kicked by Bad Kaeloo. Add to that his incredible abuse of non-sapient sheeps, who somehow survives him even when he sets them on fire. The guy's awesomeness is more about his weapons, his sadism, him being a Heroic Comedic Sociopath and how fucked up he is than his manipulative skills. Not to mention the fact that he told Pretty to kill herself (she may be a jerk, but even her doesn't deserve that), his sexism and his Fantastic Racism towards ducks and rabbits.

That said, if anyone wants to EP him, I'm willing to hear out his arguments.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Sep 11th 2019 at 12:01:20 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#12811: Sep 10th 2019 at 10:11:58 PM

'Yes' to Ultear

Agreeing with Polar here that Tabuu doesn't count, he's an utterly silent antagonist and I'm honestly not sure if a character who doesn't even speak can count.

[up][up] FWIW, I don't really think GLaDOS counts here, honestly. She's smart as a whip and a hilarious character, but she's way, way too petty for me to see her as charming in the sense of "magnificence." She's charming in that she's funny as hell, but when 75% of her dialogue is mocking Chell in such petty, low-down ways as pretending to call her parents, putting on a play voice and saying "We're sorry, the parents you are trying to reach no longer love you," and then taunts Chell over being an orphan? It makes it.... difficult for me to see her as truly "magnificent."

That's just me though, not even trying to argue that she needs to be cut just putting in my two cents, she's one of my favorite villains ever regardless.

Edited by Ravok on Sep 10th 2019 at 10:16:12 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#12812: Sep 10th 2019 at 10:38:56 PM

I'm actually of the opinion that GLaDOS' charm comes from her out of universe interpretations. Portal is very vague about what it wants you to think of its antagonists. Except Wheatley who is too ditzy to be this trope. I'd be for cutting her if it came to that, but I'd rather not ruffle any feathers.

Keep in mind being somewhat of a sociopath/self centered and petty are not necessarily disqualifiers. It's whether that detracts from their magnificence. Keyes for example is a Misanthrope Supreme who wants to cause mass murder of his enemies with a little bit of collateral damage. It may seem petty and single minded but he's a brilliant villain and backs up everything by playing one of the most intelligent characters in franchise HISTORY. Plus his enemies are arguably even worse or at the very least are Asshole Victim and essentially are responsible for Keyes' turn to evil.

Edited by Klavice on Sep 11th 2019 at 11:34:31 AM

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#12813: Sep 11th 2019 at 12:21:48 AM

Should we cut Lex Luthor from Young Justice? In the last season, he pretty much devolved into a Smug Snake.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#12814: Sep 11th 2019 at 12:49:33 AM

Definite no on Mr. Cat in that case.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12815: Sep 11th 2019 at 1:23:44 AM

Whose Mr. Cat?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#12816: Sep 11th 2019 at 1:31:16 AM

[up] The unapproved that Georgie brought up. I'd also agree that I don't think he belongs here.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#12817: Sep 11th 2019 at 2:11:52 AM

Mr. Cat is certainly entertaining, a great Villain Protagonist and is my favorite Kaeloo character. Just not a MB.

The only Kaeloo character close to being a MB is evil Stumpy/Moignon in episode 105. But IIRC, his smarts were brought by a moral agency issue, so I'm not sure.

EDIT : Scratch that, Stumpy pulled briefly a Face–Heel Turn of his own volition in this episode. I think he can make it.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Sep 11th 2019 at 9:30:41 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12818: Sep 11th 2019 at 8:11:10 AM

I think Glados' pettiness adds to her charm. And her Character Development sees her move past that stuff. And Glados suffered horribly, so I'm willing to cut some slack when it comes to revenge. But if Glados were to keep seeking revenge on Chell, then I may be inclined to cut.

Ardyn's way worse while I'm on this train. What he puts Noctis and the bois through is vile. I think that should be our (loose) standard for just how far you can take petty revenge and still be an MB.

Edited by PolarPhantom on Sep 11th 2019 at 4:19:50 PM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#12819: Sep 11th 2019 at 10:40:38 AM

So, any answers to Silverblade's question? I didn't see the last season of Young Justice so I can't judge for myself, but if Lex devolves into a Smug Snake, that sounds like grounds to cut him

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12820: Sep 11th 2019 at 10:43:50 AM

It's tough right now. His character gets derailed and he turns into a borderline Trump expy at times. He's pretty borderline at the moment, but I want to see how S4 handles him before a full cut as he hasn't gone totally off the rails.

Vandal, on the other hand...hoo yes, he's an MB par excellence.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12821: Sep 11th 2019 at 10:46:53 AM

Oh Yeah there were good people on both sides.[lol].

Subtle they weren't.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12822: Sep 11th 2019 at 12:18:25 PM

Luthor is way too good a villain to be used as such - or maybe they play it well I dunno.

Oh, and @Ravok, I think a Silent Antagonist can be an MB. The closest I can think of is my very own Predator. It has minimal dialogue, but I think it would count regardless due to how well characterised it is.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#12823: Sep 11th 2019 at 12:47:53 PM

[up][up][up]Wasn't Vandal played and outsmarted by Darkseid?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Sep 11th 2019 at 10:49:35 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12824: Sep 11th 2019 at 12:51:15 PM

Not....really? He realizes Darkseid is going behind his back and has found the Anti-Life equation, which voids their deal. His solution? Use the heroes to stop it, make sure they mention to Darkseid Vandal was responsible to rub it in, and then goes there himself to rattle some sabers....before reaffirming the deal and leaving peacefully, and in a better position than before.

Vandal had no way whatsoever to know Halo was the Anti-Life Equation's little secret and when he realizes it, he reacts accordingly.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#12825: Sep 11th 2019 at 2:02:12 PM

I wouldn’t say lex is derailed. He’s a corrupt businessman after all. Were just now seeing it more clearly


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