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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#12776: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:38:17 AM

Oh I would definately recommend it. Its a fascinating, soulful story that still holds up after two hundred years. I can easily understand why its considered a classic. Plus I had the advantage that I read it, whilst I was staying the on Yorkshire moors, which really added to experience.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#12777: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:57:19 AM

As for the issue with "The Greats", the Rock example sounds good. I'd personally use Lex Luthor from Justice League as the example of a character evolving into an MB, considering he ditches his Dirty Coward traits and becomes possibly the most badass character in the DCAU.

Also yea to Ultear.

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#12782: Sep 8th 2019 at 1:27:28 PM

YMMV.Flashpoint.

YMMV.Hollow Kingdom Trilogy

Edited by Clown-Face on Sep 8th 2019 at 1:30:33 AM

Why so serious?
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#12784: Sep 8th 2019 at 3:04:00 PM

you know what... sure to Ultear. She's the only MB from FT that I can think of besides Zeref.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12785: Sep 8th 2019 at 6:02:03 PM

Okay, because I'm still new here, I would give Lightysnake the task to write up Ultear.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12789: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:09:10 PM

Sorry for making others doing that, but I already was on my way with leaving the cleanup forums. I make some rookie mistakes (taking or editing other user's jobs) for example. I think I either gain more experience or leave the forums. So please don't give me more characters to propose.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12790: Sep 9th 2019 at 4:15:34 AM

We don't force characters on anyone. It's absolutely voluntary here. If you wanna just hang around and vote while you get more comfortable, by all means.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#12791: Sep 9th 2019 at 5:09:03 AM

Yeah, I only suggested Ultear since I thought she counted and you seemed interested in covering Fairy Tail. I didn’t mean to force anything on you.

Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12792: Sep 9th 2019 at 5:45:17 AM

I know. I seem to overestimate my writing skills on entries. I can only do some.

Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12793: Sep 9th 2019 at 10:51:49 AM

Okay, regarding the Fairy Tail characters:

Looks like Future Rogue is a 'no'.

I still could write Ultear's entry if there is still none. Feel free to check.

Edited by Fan727 on Sep 9th 2019 at 10:52:11 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#12795: Sep 9th 2019 at 4:20:16 PM

Cut this example from Final Fantasy: Unlimited: Oscha

IPP Wick Check created.
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12797: Sep 9th 2019 at 9:22:43 PM

Papyru, I mean reading the entry and check if there are some writing mistakes.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#12798: Sep 9th 2019 at 10:46:15 PM

Could Tabuu from Brawl count? We mainly see his influence through Ganondorf and Bowser, the major Big Bads of Subspace at least until Master Hand is revealed to be controlled by Tabuu. He certainly fulfills the bastard requirements and given the characters are not actually killed and he was taken off Complete Monster, why not? Anyone think he's got a chance?

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#12799: Sep 9th 2019 at 11:15:56 PM

Absolutely not imo. Tabuu has absolutely zero personality or charisma to him, not to mention he leaves all of the actual planning to Ganondorf.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#12800: Sep 10th 2019 at 4:35:35 AM

I agree there concerning Tabuu. The only Brawl characters I can see as MBs would be Ganondorf and Dedede. And even the latter I'm not even sure he's enough of a bastard.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Sep 10th 2019 at 1:36:04 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

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