During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Sure to Cypher.
That said, to answer to Austin's arguments against Mojo Jojo, I'd immediately reject the "animated series is canon" argument. It is canon, but I'm only focusing on Mojo Jojo's actions in The Movie. With this argument, we could say that Eggman doesn't count in general despite the fact that his MB incarnations in the main games are just as canon as his non-MB incarnations, with several references to others games to boot. Eggman had been rejected as a whole but approved in some games, and I fail to see why it wouldn't be the case with Mojo Jojo. To finish, I'd like to point out that not every episode of the series was written by the same person, thus Depending on the Writer also applies to Mojo Jojo.
That's my thoughts on the matter. I'll understand if he ends up being downvoted and if you still don't think he counts, that said.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)The movie has the same writers as the series though.
Depending on the writer doesn't apply when it's literally the same writers.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."True, but it still remains a different work from the series, even though it's canon.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Not how Depending on the Writer works. Tried that in Luan, and that didn't work.
@ Austin Understood. But that said, I was merely basing myself on The Movie, which isn't forbidden IIRC. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered with him.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)found this on The Wrong Mans:
- Magnificent Bastard: The second series brings us Kalil, a clever, Faux Affably Evil mercenary with some badass points to boot. His actions, while cruel, are so brilliantly executed that he is, on some level, hard not to like.
I could re-watch season two to see if he counts.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Lucypher
to Mojo Jojo
Now then here's Moriarty's write-up before I forget
- Elementary: Jamie Moriarty is a criminal mastermind who has orchestrated many assassinations. When Sherlock Holmes interferes with Moriarty's plans, she cultivates the identity of Irene Adler, and manipulates Sherlock into falling in love with her before faking her death driving Holmes into despair. She would also set her "killer" Sebastian Moran, up as a Serial Killer and later has Moran kill himself before he reveals anything about her to Sherlock. Revealing her true identity to Sherlock, she arranges the Greek business man "Narwal" to kill a Macedonian diplomat, leading to Macedonia not joining the European Union and switch to the Euro currency to which Moriarty would make billions out of their current currency; Moriarty would have gotten away with it if wasn't for the sudden intervention of Joan Watson. Now confined in a highly secured prison she helps Sherlock and Watson find her subordinates before escaping her confinements and kill them herself when they kidnapped her daughter before going back to prison. She also has her daughter's father be her successor to her criminal organization, and later allows Sherlock's father Morland take over, before escaping her prison and waiting for Morland to die before reclaiming it. Faking her death several times to elude authorities and have Sherlock and Watson arrest all her rivals, Jamie Moriarty ends the series with her devious and brilliance only matched by the detective duo's determination to bring her to justice.
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 7th 2019 at 2:29:57 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffAny thoughts on the other Jackie Chan character?:
"*Valmont, though only in the 1st season. By that time, he's presented as a sophisticated and good-looking crime lord who seemed to be able to remain in control in most of the situations. Whenever he appeared, he remained cool and gelid snarky whatever addressing his henchmen, his enemies or Shendu. He was also able to react to misfortunes better than in the later seasons. In both of the only times he personally faced Jackie, he fared better than his henchmen. He came up with a Xanatos Gambit, which included poisoning Jackie with venom that turns its victim to stone: either the Talismans stored in Section 13 are handed over to the Dark Hand or the heroes lose Jackie, which would tip the balance in the Dark Hand's favor (which is something Jade notes to Jackie who's selling himself short). He was also smart enough to not bring the antidote anywhere close to Jackie prematurely. After Shendu betrays him and he's arrested, he's revealed to have as a false tooth a homing beacon that allows his Sword Cane to levitate to his position. Sadly, Valmont never demonstrates anything this impressive in any of the following seasons."
Edited by Fan727 on Sep 7th 2019 at 7:42:21 AM
Gonna say 'No' to Mojo Jojo, but 'Yes' to Cypher and that Moriarty.
BTW, I know Thrawn has already been approved for Star Wars Rebels, but does anyone mind if I propose him from the "modern" Thrawn trilogy, comprised of Thrawn, Thrawn: Alliances and Thrawn: Treason?
It's technically the "same" Thrawn as they are both part of the Disney canon, but I think the novel Thrawn more than counts, and deserves his own proposal and write-up, personally. It would take a bit as I've got to reread the trilogy, but if it's decided he's worth the proposal I'll happily bring 'im up.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 7th 2019 at 8:07:31 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!To Awesome Kid: Don't worry, I wouldn't nuke you. Yet.
Thought...It's annoying to EP a fic whose main them is "Law Sucks and they're uncool hypocrites who can't stand to FACTS AND LOGIC" when you're a Law aligned fan.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 7th 2019 at 10:52:42 AM
Watch me destroying my country

@Fan
Remove the entry, and PM the troper to make an EP here
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Sep 7th 2019 at 7:06:42 AM