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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#12701: Sep 6th 2019 at 8:25:52 PM

I'll go with a yes to Moriarty and Mojo Jojo.

2 Questions. 1. Has anybody ever looked into the original Frankenstein novel? I haven't read it myself but the monster seems to fit bases on what I've heard so far. 2. What happened to the Origami Killer? I can't find the decision to cut him anywhere.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12703: Sep 6th 2019 at 8:29:32 PM

Gonna agree with no to Mojo Jojo since the movie's canon to the series.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#12704: Sep 6th 2019 at 8:33:44 PM

Switching to a no on Mojo Jojo

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#12706: Sep 6th 2019 at 9:25:30 PM

Umm, is there anything to suggest that the PPG movie takes place in a seperate continuity from the series?

This EP though does give me an idea. Could Plankton from the first Spomgebob Squarepants film count? IIRC, it was stated by Word of God that was the canon series finale and all the other seasons after it are in a different continuity.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#12707: Sep 6th 2019 at 9:34:13 PM

[up] Aside from some minor continuity errors, the movie does fit well with the main story. The creation of the Power Puff Girls is exactly how it was depicted in Mojo Jojo and Professor Utomium's stories of how the Power Puff Girls came to being.

As for Plankton, maybe an EP for the Spongebob Movie, but I have my doubts if he qualifies.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12708: Sep 6th 2019 at 9:41:34 PM

In the case of Plankton, SpongeBob SquarePants runs on Negative Continuity far more than The Powerpuff Girls does. Also Plankton has a pretty big Villainous Breakdown at the end of it all.

Edited by jjjj2 on Sep 6th 2019 at 12:41:57 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#12709: Sep 6th 2019 at 9:59:16 PM

An episode from the series explicitly has it stated that Utonium was Jojo's owner and that through the mischief and chaos he wreaked through the laboratory, he inadvertently assisted in the creation of the girls. The movie pretty much restates this fact.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12710: Sep 6th 2019 at 10:08:49 PM

Plankton...an Argument CAN be made.

Personally I feel the fact it's in continuity with the show to not be an issue, it takes place after the show so it could be shown to be a case of him growing into this.

My one issue is his reaction to things not going his way.

[up] is Having the same origin as the show ALL the evidence that it shares a universe with the show?

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 6th 2019 at 10:12:08 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#12711: Sep 6th 2019 at 10:18:49 PM

The film serves as an origin story. With a few references to the episodes. This isn't a case where more than one writer gave different incarnations of Mojo Jojo like with Eggman's case.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#12712: Sep 6th 2019 at 10:44:45 PM

I really don't think Plankton counts. Aside from his villainous breakdown at the end, he's the butt of many jokes throughout the film (getting trampled by SpongeBob during his introduction, forgetting that Z is the final letter of the alphabet, etc.)

Not to mention that the film is probably the most sadistic we've seen Plankton, as he's absolute ecstatic over watching Mr. Krabs's execution, and is seen whipping slaves to build statues of himself.

If you want to an EP, feel free. But I really have my reservations about him.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12713: Sep 6th 2019 at 10:51:47 PM

[tup]Moriarty

[tdown]Mojo. There's actually an episode later that had mojo meet one of the monkeys that he transformed with same chemical x sequence. It really is Canon to the show where he's the definition of a Smug Snake.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 6th 2019 at 10:52:27 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#12714: Sep 6th 2019 at 10:54:05 PM

@chasemaddigan I also have some reservations with Plankton either. I'm cool with comedic M Bs but yeah, he's still getting easily trampled by another characters and my glaring issue with Plankton? Is the slavery part.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#12715: Sep 6th 2019 at 11:53:00 PM

True for Mojo Jojo. But that said, I do remember Depending on the Writer applies after all, right?

To top it off, being canon to the main series doesn't changes the fact that it's a different work. If we were talking about an episode, yes, I'd understand. But I fail to see the canon argument against the movie.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Sep 7th 2019 at 9:14:25 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12716: Sep 7th 2019 at 12:09:36 AM

Found that on the YMMV of Last Scenario.

"* Magnificent Bastard:

  • Augustus, who is behind most of the political intrigue in the first half of the game and plays nearly everyone like fiddles. However, his reputation is probably most cemented by the utterly ruthless speech he gives to Helga as he kills her, which many fans say is their favorite speech in the game.
    Helga: I... I trusted you!
    Augustus: Well, that was a stupid move. But then, you never were very bright, were you?
  • Castor. Deconstructed in that when Castor loses at full power, he's so unable to cope with the fact that he's just not as good that he goes into a Villainous Breakdown.
  • Despite only being a backstory character, King Valkiris almost certainly qualifies, managing to dupe his entire army into fighting an hideously unjust war for him with undying loyalty, and ensuring that he went down in history as a good guy afterwards."

Removed it from the page. Any opinions?

Edited by Fan727 on Sep 7th 2019 at 1:14:43 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12717: Sep 7th 2019 at 1:18:51 AM

I would love to do Frankenstein myself but I'd need to find a copy of the novel.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#12718: Sep 7th 2019 at 1:23:16 AM

Same honestly. I'm reading a lot right now so do you want to put in on your to-do list?

Also reiterating my question on what happened to the origami killer

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#12719: Sep 7th 2019 at 6:28:03 AM

I can't find it right now but it was decided that the game having one ending where he begs for his life after all the shit he put Ethan through made him too scummy.

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#12720: Sep 7th 2019 at 6:40:18 AM

@Fan:

Augustus probably qualifies, but my memory of the game is too hazy to do a EP for him. Castor is way too unstable to count and I don't remember the backstory king.

[tdown]Mojo Jojo

Edited by lrrose on Sep 7th 2019 at 9:41:50 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#12721: Sep 7th 2019 at 7:21:06 AM

To answer your question, Shadao, I was only taking in account The Movie.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12722: Sep 7th 2019 at 7:28:17 AM

Okay.

I'm not that experienced with this trope. I also don't remember the game that well. So I won't make the proposals. Maybe anyone else can.

I think I close this topic now.

Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12723: Sep 7th 2019 at 8:35:08 AM

Found that on the YMMV of Jackie Chan Adventures:

"Magnificent Bastard:

  • Tarakudo is the most well-spoken, personable and collected of the Arc Villains and the least harsh taskmaster towards the Dark Hand. He doesn't react to defeats as badly as the others, being instead able to find ways to turn unexpected turns into advantages (like initiating the Oni Mask-wearing Captain Black's corruption by tricking him into summoning his Shadowkhan). In the 4th season's finale, he's revealed to have all along played a Xanatos Gambit that goes like this: whatever the Dark Hand or the Chans collect all nine Oni Masks, they will free his Generals by bringing all the masks in the same location, with only him knowing of the consequences. The heroes discover a way to defeat him — the mask made specifically to seal him — only by accident and even then, Tarakudo is revealed to have hidden the mask in the Shadow Realm, which is accessible to humans only by using the Shadowkhan to take them there. The J-Team gets the mask at the cost of Tohru being corrupted by Tarakudo's mark. Before Tarakudo is sealed inside his mask, he's given a physical body and stripped of his telekinetic powers. He faces the J-Team with martial arts and single-handedly defeats Jackie, El Toro and Viper. Only by distracting him they are able to slam his mask on his face.
  • Valmont, though only in the 1st season. By that time, he's presented as a sophisticated and good-looking crime lord who seemed to be able to remain in control in most of the situations. Whenever he appeared, he remained cool and gelid snarky whatever addressing his henchmen, his enemies or Shendu. He was also able to react to misfortunes better than in the later seasons. In both of the only times he personally faced Jackie, he fared better than his henchmen. He came up with a Xanatos Gambit, which included poisoning Jackie with venom that turns its victim to stone: either the Talismans stored in Section 13 are handed over to the Dark Hand or the heroes lose Jackie, which would tip the balance in the Dark Hand's favor (which is something Jade notes to Jackie who's selling himself short). He was also smart enough to not bring the antidote anywhere close to Jackie prematurely. After Shendu betrays him and he's arrested, he's revealed to have as a false tooth a homing beacon that allows his Sword Cane to levitate to his position. Sadly, Valmont never demonstrates anything this impressive in any of the following seasons."

This list doesn't include them:

Magnificent Bastard / Western Animation

Any thoughts?

Edited by Fan727 on Sep 7th 2019 at 4:05:35 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#12724: Sep 7th 2019 at 9:02:48 AM

[up] Honestly, if what the entry says is accurate, I think one could make a good case for Tarakudo being an MB.

By the way, are there any characters you're surprised don't have an MB incarnation yet? I got a couple off the top of my head:

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#12725: Sep 7th 2019 at 9:28:49 AM

In the case of Plankton...Nah, he's at his worst during the film. If anything, Movie! Plankton can be argued as a Hate Sink (not a CM due to failing the heinous standard, not openly killing anyone).

Setting?

Megami no Hanabira. A crossover between SMT and Sono Hanabira ni Kuchizuke Wo, a VN Yuri series. I proposed Big Bad Archibald Philiphs as a CM but now it's time for Law's Ideological Arch-Enemy.

Gosh, I hate Chaos aligned fans.

Who is Cypher?

Lucifer in it's more obvious alias ever. Lucifer hacked the Demon Summoning System of the Flock, thus allowing their demon outbreak to not be controlled.

She also sends messages to multiple Demon Tamers, giving them funtions that facilizate their power developtment while also summoning some Fiends, The Feared of the demon world to the human one. After the protagonists defeat Matador, Cypher becomes interested on their skill and uses messages to guide them to the Server that summon demons, aware of the dangers that awaited ther.

Later, Lucifer contacts with them disguised as Sister Danica, a member of the Flock, and gives them information about Father Phillips and the Flock, encouraging them to fight against them.

Later, as Phillips becomes more and more unhinged and the outbreak worses, Danica helps the protagonists by summoning the Fiends, telling them that they only can defeat the Flock if they manage to defeat the Fiends.

After Phillips' defeat, the heroines are attack for Sister Collete, Phillips' grandaughter that, while agreeing with The Flock's endgoal, was disgusted at Phillips' open Lack of Empathy.

Taking pride on having used the Protagonists to broadcast the events of the story, Cypher gloats to Collete at his victory, telling her that now the Abrahamic religions now have no future and admitting that she didn't plan to cause Hell on Earth, mocking the Flock for having caused that instead (...Gosh, I hate typing this).

Giving Collete a massive The Reason Why You Sucks speech, it all ends with Collete running away from Danican's speech (I can repeat that I hate typing this?) before ending the Demon Outbreak as reward to the protagonists, showing that she could have do it all the time.

Telling the heroines about his real identity, Lucifer gives them the option to becoming her Godslayers, Champions of the forces of Chaos, and to fight against the forces of Law throught the multiverse (sigh, this is a bit more complex in canon—Nocturne truly has spoiled the fanbase).

Tempting them, Lucifer's offer is ultimately rejected for the girls who just want to live a normal life. At such rejection, Lucifer simply...accepts, saying that while he's dissapointed, he still has won by ruining God's reputation, showing that unlike Him, Lucifer is not a hypocrite ('AAAAARGHHH someone save me please) and wishing them good luck before leaving.

Charisma?

Cypher is myserious and appears relatively few, but always maintain an air of dignity that no other character haves. With his distaste towards the forces of Law being a possitive given that the Flock are basically a bunch of hypocrital terrorists. As Danica, she always keep a air of mystery and sophistication.

Bastard?

Lucifer could have ended the outbreak as soon she could, she clearly don't cares about the lives of humans, she summon dangerous Fiends to test the protagonists and other Demon Tamers.

But Lucifer is also the Big Good De Facto, values the choices of the protagonists and is a vital ally to beat the Flock.

Verdict?

Clear Yes. Being Regular Lucifer, with some useful Anti-Law bias from part of the Author encouraging the most charming traits.

I hated writing this

Watch me destroying my country

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