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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#12478: Aug 29th 2019 at 12:13:32 AM

Alrighty happy 500 pages everyone. 500 more and we’ll reach 1000! [awesome]

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 29th 2019 at 9:13:41 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#12481: Aug 29th 2019 at 10:28:46 AM

500 and right on time for my birthday.

Oh, and [tup] for Gennai and Sena

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12482: Aug 29th 2019 at 10:31:52 AM

Has Jackie Chan Adventures ever come up here? Valmont would be a bust because of Villain Decay and being a pawn of Shendu, but could Shendu count?

I actually never watched the 5th season and it's been a while since I watched the show so maybe something disqualifying happens.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#12483: Aug 29th 2019 at 11:28:11 AM

[up] Let us know how that works out, Polar.

Happy Birthday, Shadao.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 29th 2019 at 2:29:38 PM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12484: Aug 29th 2019 at 12:19:07 PM

Hah. I don't have the time for Jackie Chan adventures sorry to say. But I am curious.

Oh, sorry: HAPPY BIRTHDAY

Edited by PolarPhantom on Aug 29th 2019 at 8:20:43 PM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12485: Aug 29th 2019 at 1:26:04 PM

Happy birthday Shadao!

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12486: Aug 29th 2019 at 1:58:20 PM

Happy birthday shado

Also happy 500th page. Sweet.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#12489: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:23:22 PM

Happy birthday, Shandao!

That said, excellent. Congrats everyone for the 500 pages.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12490: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:41:52 PM

I've been thinking on two approved examples.

First is Rache from A Study in Emerald. I think he's fundamentally too heroic for this trope. Yes he kills someone, but that someone was a Hybrid Eldritch Abomination. Considering that's the only person he kills, and he's in general fighting a rebellion against the Old Ones, he feels more like a Guile Hero, than a Magnificent Bastard.

Second is Talia from the The Dark Knight Rises. In the end of the movie I feel she makes three blunders that severely diminish her magnificence in my mind. The first is Evil Gloating, that leads to Gordon blocking her signal, averting Talking Is a Free Action. Then she tells Bane not to kill batman. Then she tells Batman she flooded the reactor chamber, giving him the idea to fly it out over the bay (the last one is probably debatable since he was probably always planning to do that). Still I feel that she constantly undermines her own success towards the end.

Edit: Also happy birthday Shadao!

Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 29th 2019 at 8:43:07 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12491: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:45:12 PM

Rache is still trying to tear down an established order into a general anarchy. For a good cause? Yes, but the effect on the world can be catastrophic.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12492: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:53:25 PM

[up] I feel like that's Fridge Brilliance. I feel like he wants to strip the world of the Old ones. He doesn't want no government. I would peg him as an Anti-Hero, but a Pragmatic Hero not an Unscrupulous Hero.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12493: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:54:20 PM

He pretty much says he's tearing down the Old Ones which will lead to chaos in its wake.

I did raise these issues in his EP

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12494: Aug 29th 2019 at 6:02:51 PM

[up] He does say he's tearing down the Old Ones, but he doesn't say it will lead to chaos in it's wake. He says "And it is not the price we pay for peace and prosperity. It is too great a price for that." I feel that is the general adage of any freedom fighter under any totalitarian system. Moriarity is the one who says the Restorationists desire anarchy.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12495: Aug 29th 2019 at 6:08:42 PM

The story itself doesn't take the idea that overthrowing the order of the old ones is going to be sunshine and rainbows. There are dark undercurrents to it, and it will lead to horrible chaos in the vacuum. I think Rache isright on things, and of course he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist but I feel he's just enough of a bastard in that extremism

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12496: Aug 29th 2019 at 6:12:30 PM

[up] I just don't agree that he's too much of a bastard for this trope, but call it a difference of opinion. If it's not enough to sway other people, it's not enough to sway other people.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#12497: Aug 29th 2019 at 6:25:23 PM

Happy birthday to Shadao and I'll back Lighty on Rache having read the story.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#12498: Aug 29th 2019 at 8:07:35 PM

Hey guys so I just took my name off of the South Park reservation given how people don't like hearing this show on the thread and how unlucky I am at getting candidates from there approved. If someone here wants to reserve it thinking that someone in the 23rd season might qualify I'm okay with that.

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 29th 2019 at 5:09:44 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#12499: Aug 29th 2019 at 9:33:32 PM

Now that it's been two weeks since Invader Zim: Enter the Florpus was released, I'll kick off discussion for it.

Nobody counts. Zim's still as hilarious as ever, and his manipulation of Dib was splendidly done, but at the end of the day, he's still a delusional lunatic with little to no common sense (like him simply deciding to write off the Florpus despite it being explained how much of a threat or was, or not noticing how the humans weren't paying any attention to him). The fact that the plan only comes as a result of forgetting what phase two of his initial plan was doesn't help his case either.

Every other villain in the movie is a total idiot, so there's no point in discussing them.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#12500: Aug 29th 2019 at 9:58:15 PM

Happy birthday, Shadao! And happy 500 pages to the thread!

I think my Aodh Canmore EP is finally ready. Probably gonna post it tomorrow.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 29th 2019 at 9:58:46 AM


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