Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here

for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.

Definitely not an MB

South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

zookx1 Since: Aug, 2015

#12376: Aug 24th 2019 at 4:43:59 PM

Thank you, 43110.

Reasons why 'Zack State' should be a Magnificent Bastard.

Here goes. *cracks knuckles!*

SPOILER ALERT!

The Work: The Mental State is the story of Zachary 'Zack' State a formerly kind and friendly young man who is sent to prison following a Manslaughter Provocation in which he is Forced to Watch as his girlfriend is raped by street thugs. The whole ordeal traumatises him and leaves him with a sociopathic mindset. He uses his newly-acquired ruthlessness and cunning to survive in prison. Gradually, his objectives and ambitions become increasingly grander and he decided to completely reform the entire American justice system from within. He also makes various enemies in prison and eventually comes to blows with a mysterious international crime-lord being held in the same prison. The last third of the book is essentially a Battle of Wits between the two of them.
The Character's Actions: He manages to remove himself and his girlfriend from the street thugs by turning them against their leader and then killing and/or critically injuring them. Once in prison, he worms his was into a gang of drug-dealers and junkies while turning them against the members he does not like. Eventually, he successfully stages a leadership coup by cutting of the gang's drug supply and turning them against their leader. He then forces them to quit cold-turkey, which results in them becoming more sociable. Along the way, he discovers that the ultra-conservative Commissioner in charge of the prison has sent an undercover cop to spy on the inmates and expose their drug-use. He takes this opportunity to steal the cop's mobile phone, containing incriminating evidence about who he is, and uses it to extort him into becoming a junkie himself. He also uses the mobile to contact and blackmail the Commissioner into implementing countless changes to the running of the prison, effectively placing it completely under his control. Then, wanting to connect the men's prison to the adjoining women's prison, so that the inmates can develop romantic relationships together, he tricks a gang of rapists into digging a tunnel for him, before tipping the women off in advance and the rapists end up being brutally massacred by the violent female inmates. He frames a sadistic prison guard for drug possession and makes him an inmate in his own prison. He runs for 'Prisoner Representative' and wins by a landslide thanks to his manipulative tactics. He then comes up against a crime-lord who is almost as intelligent as he is. By the end of their Battle of Wits, the crime-lord has lost everything, including his freedom, his organisation, and his FINGERS! By the time Zack leaves the prison, he has completely reformed it into a more liberal society centred around helping criminals reform rather than simply punishing them, along with plenty of other prisons across the country who adopt similar practices once people realise that they have caused re-offending rates to drop. He also has an infamous reputation and countless followers. On top of all that, he manages to hold onto his good-conduct time from start to finish, as the authorities never find out any of the crimes he committed while in prison...This is the SIMPLIFIED version of what he does.
Thinking On Their Feet: He repeatedly manages to exploit any new developments as they come along. However, here are the examples in which he is actually up against the wall:
- Near the beginning of the book, he is pinned in place while the leader of a gang of street thugs rapes his girlfriend and threaten to do worse to both of them. He responds by persuading them to turn on their leader and hold him in place by preying on their blood-lust and telling them that, if they do, he will let them film him as he carves out a chunk of the leader's flesh and eat it. He takes revenge by carving out a chunk of flesh using the knife the gang provide him with, but doesn't eat it. Instead, he stabs the ones holding his girlfriend hostage, critically injuring them, and tells the others that they will die unless they are taken to hospital immediately. This allows him and his girlfriend to escape.
- On his first day in prison, an inmate called Harry tries to slip him a mickey in order to start him on the road to drug-dependency. He immediately suspects that something is wrong and gives his lunch to another inmate. He then feigns being high so that he will be taken away to be interrogated by the prison warden. Once there, he convinces the warden to let him spearhead a drugs-raid on Harry's gang, which he is able to infiltrate by pretending that he is already hooked. He is able to uses the trauma he supposedly experienced during this incident to excuse himself from joining in any future drug-related events the gang participate in. He then pins the blame on Harry, who is beaten to a pulp while Zack looks on smugly.
- Once he finds out that there is an undercover cop trying to uncover evidence of drug-use in prison, he realises that he must choose between warning the gang, which would potentially cost him his good-conduct time, and assisting the officer, which would likely result in him being branded a snitch. He escapes from this by taking a third option. He convinces the gang's leader to invite to cop to a meeting, where he is forced to pretend that he is an addict by letting himself get humiliated and then taking drugs hismelf. While this is happening, Zack uses a pebble to jam the door-lock to the officer's cell, break in and steal his mobile phone, which contains evidence of who he really is. He uses his knowledge to blackmail the officer into becoming a genuine drug addict. He also contacts the Commissioner who sent him to spy in the first place using the mobile and threatens to endanger the officer's life unless he implements a large number of changes to the prison. He now has both law-enforcers completely under his control.
- In the final chapter, after being released from prison, he finds himself a witness to his ex-girlfriend being attacked by a knife-wielding mugger and there is not enough time for the police to arrive before he kills her. He uses an Obfuscating Insanity tactic to convince the mugger that he is a psychotic pimp with secret criminal contacts and backs up his story by showing him the video footage the gang of street thugs took of him carving out a chunk of someone's flesh. The mugger runs away in panic and the ex-girlfriend is saved.
The Competition: Zack has several opponents over the course of the story. Most of them are fairly simple, but some of them have genuine objectives and plans.
- Harry likes to slip Spice into the meals newcomers eat in order to get them hooked in. He then uses their addiction to lure them into joining the gang that he is in. Once their, he delights in making them do foolish and dangerous things in order to get a fix. He has apparently succeeded in doing this to several others. Zack only avoids the same fate because he is paranoid about people in prison and goes to great lengths to get out of having to join in.
- The Commissioner and his junior officer violate prisoner rights by having the officer infiltrate the prison disguised as a drug addict and spy on the other inmates. They intend to expose the inmates who deal in drugs in order to make themselves look good. Luckily, Zack's paranoia leads to him finding out about the undercover cop. It took a very risky tactic to turn the tables on the two of them. Of course, by providing Zack with a means to blackmail the man in charge of the prison, they actually made things worse for themselves.
- A black inmate called 'Little Mickey' stands for 'Prisoner Representative' at the same time as Zack. By using his younger but much stronger brother as leverage, he is able to convince all the other black inmates to join him. He intends to wage a persecution campaign against the white inmates should he win the election. It is quite possible that he would have, if one of his own followers had not told Zack about his brother's Achilles' heel. However, with Zack in charge of the actual running of the prison, it might not have made much difference.
- Saif, a psychopathic crime-boss in the same prison as Zack, is the one who comes closest to beating him. He goes to extreme lengths to hide his true identity and nobody actually knows what his real name is. He has an IQ of over 140 and has a criminal empire that stretches across the globe. He is also only in prison for a trivial offence. He has an informant int he police force and easily manipulates Zack's enemies into joining him. He can also use threats of amputation to coerce people. He funds an officer's daughter's life-saving medicine just so that the officer in question is unable to go against his wishes. He is an expert hacker and is clearly more than a match for most people. In fact, by the end of one chapter, it appears that he has actually triumphed in finding Zack's weakness and can now coerce him into a life of crime, taking over the running of the entire prison in the process. When this fails on account of Zack thinking one single step ahead of him, he successfully hacks into Zack's computer using his own password, with the intention of framing him for a cyber attack. Luckily, Zack had anticipated this and arranged it so that entering the correct password (instead of three incorrect passwords followed by the correct one) would trigger a wipe and render the computer useless to anyone. From this point on, Zack's plans completely overwhelm Saif and he ends up in solitary confinement for the rest of his life.

So, MB, 'yay' or 'nay'?

Ravok RIP Toriyama Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary

RIP Toriyama

#12377: Aug 24th 2019 at 5:38:12 PM

'Yes' to Magneto and Sombra

So long as AgeOfTropeEmpire doesn't mind, I'm going to reserve the Breaking Bad movie El Camino for discussion on this thread, since he's already covering it on the CM thread.

Translucid: Harold Mills becomes the supervillain known as "the Horse" to give the rising superhero the Navigator someone to better himself fighting. Proclaiming himself the Navigator's Arch-Enemy, the Horse pulls off a variety of brilliant crimes—often exposing those he kills to have been Asshole Victims to further his manipulation of the Navigator—and, upon deeming the Navigator superior, turns himself in, believing his job to be done in bettering he hero. However, when the Navigator shows a crippling dependency on the Horse, the supervillain arranges his release and, deciding the Navigator isn't the hero he thought he was, murders him and takes up his identity to be the best hero the world has ever seen, giving the Navigator a peaceful death and helping him conquer his inner demons as a final gift to his nemesis, who the Horse also considered a true friend.

Edited by Ravok on Aug 24th 2019 at 5:38:47 AM

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines

Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II

#12378: Aug 24th 2019 at 7:00:03 PM

Sure to the candidates I missed, Zack included.

That said, could anyone answer my previous question?

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]

Shin Megami Tensei IV

#12379: Aug 24th 2019 at 7:13:59 PM

Just asking, if a character is a Deconstruction of the Noble Demon trope (I.e., even though he has much more chances of winning against his enemies, he chose to follows his Evil Virtues to the very end at the risk of losing and dying, something he's fully aware of), but still has the qualities of an MB, can he actually make it or it's too much of a mitigating factor?

Sounds like he might count IMO

Honestly we're lenient on bigotry if there's a reason.

One issue with your argument is, what if the bigotry is answered in a brutal fashion? Like, for example, the survivors of a genocidal war sending death squads to kill refugees from the ethnicity that tried to kill them? That's just...way too much. I don't many any character in particular, but the example of bigotry should be a clear Case-By-Case thing IMO

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 24th 2019 at 9:16:19 AM

Watch me destroying my country

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance

#12380: Aug 24th 2019 at 7:23:19 PM

Thank you for the EP zook and yes to Zach there.

Bullman "Cool. Coolcoolcool." Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

"Cool. Coolcoolcool."

#12381: Aug 24th 2019 at 7:25:36 PM

Sure to Zack.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009

#12382: Aug 24th 2019 at 7:42:02 PM

Zack

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015

#12383: Aug 24th 2019 at 7:59:07 PM

to Zack

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

#12384: Aug 24th 2019 at 8:06:10 PM

Zack. That book sounds awesome.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012

#12385: Aug 24th 2019 at 8:42:35 PM

If victim of bigotry becomes such a bigot they cannot be distinguished from their old oppressors then that's where problems come into play.

G-Editor Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities

#12386: Aug 24th 2019 at 9:02:06 PM

to Zach

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)

Goku Black

#12387: Aug 24th 2019 at 10:18:53 PM

Zach

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free

Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)

#12388: Aug 25th 2019 at 12:10:35 AM

Sure to our friend Zachariah! (Pls refer him to Zack to avoid confusion :3)

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom from tall grass (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life

The Draftsman of Doom

#12389: Aug 25th 2019 at 8:31:53 AM

Zack State.

Rawr.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance

#12390: Aug 25th 2019 at 8:55:25 AM

@ Zook, I just saw the entry you put up on YMMV.The Mental State, we usually post them here and in the drafts page on my signature so I can get the mods to also put them on the main pages which are locked. The entry itself looks good but we try to avoid potholing the prerequisite tropes, avoid assertions like "no question" since having an approved entry already implies that and stylistically I just like using the character's name more throughout the entry. Here's my slightly tweaked version but it's your character and feel free to change it as you see fit:

The Mental State: Zachary "Zack" State has countless schemes in mind, can manipulate whole gangs into turning on their own members and can exploit any situation in ways that most people could never imagine. After taking brutal revenge on his enemies and going to prison for it, Zack masterfully plays inmates and guards and orchestrates a coup to become the leader of a gang. When an undercover cop starts poking around, Zack changes his plans, digs up dirt on him and blackmails not only the cop into dropping the case, but also a high-ranking official into changing the state’s entire prison system to his liking. Zack manipulates the inmates into making him their official representative and even takes down an international crime lord; reducing him to a nobody spending his entire life in solitary confinement. To top it all off, Zack does it all without losing a single second of his good-conduct time and sustains no injuries at all while in prison save for a small bruise.

For spoilers we usually leave those off the main page but I'll reapply the section you marked out on the YMMV page for the book. Great first EP and entry!

Edit: I put that in the drafts if you wanna play around with it.

Edited by 43110 on Aug 25th 2019 at 1:07:45 PM

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016

#12391: Aug 25th 2019 at 10:58:52 AM

Margin Call: John Tuld is the English-American billionaire CEO of a major US bank who quickly cuts through the office politics when apprised of the possible bankruptcy of the firm because of its over-reliance on risky CDO products. Tuld ruthlessly initiates a real estate market crash by spreading the toxic assets through the rest of the economy in a fire sale, motivating his in-house salesmen with massive bonuses and bribing the analyst who originally stumbled onto the crisis before he was let go the same day to keep him quiet. Tuld's charisma and persuasion of the rest of his staff allows his firm to stay afloat at the end of day, as he starts planning his next move to somehow profit from the crisis.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Awesomekid42 Lord of Hell Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: It was only a kiss

Lord of Hell

#12392: Aug 25th 2019 at 11:38:39 AM

Anyway, here's the writeup for Bingo.

Jughead: The Hunger: Far craftier than his mainstream counterpart, Jughead’s affable cousin, Bingo Wilkins, works for the sake of FP Jones to get his family to embrace their werewolf sides. Upon finding out that Jughead awakened his lycanthropy, Bingo fakes his own death to get the Coopers off his tail, allowing him to keep an eye on his cousin. Sabotaging Jughead when he tries to live a peaceful life at the circus, Bingo attempts to sway Jughead to his side, triggering Jughead’s werewolf transformation when Jughead rejects his offer to teach his cousin how to hunt. After saving Jughead’s life when they’re ambushed by Archie and the Coopers, Bingo later attempts to bring Jellybean to FP. To buy time for this, he triggers Jughead’s werewolf state and has him attack Archie and Betty, allowing Bingo to reach Jellybean and successfully convince her to come with him. Slipping himself and his family out of one grim scenario after another, Bingo almost always has a trick up his sleeve.

zookx1 Since: Aug, 2015

#12393: Aug 25th 2019 at 12:06:47 PM

Thank you, 43110. I am quite new at this. Your amended version looks perfect to me. Should I go back to The Mental State and re-insert your version?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance

#12394: Aug 25th 2019 at 12:57:48 PM

All good, I can take care of that and since we don't have much in the batch, I'll probably just wait until next Sunday to ask for it to go on Literature if that's cool?

zookx1 Since: Aug, 2015

#12395: Aug 25th 2019 at 1:02:48 PM

That's fine by me. Thanks ever so much for your help.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance

#12396: Aug 25th 2019 at 1:06:55 PM

My pleasure, thanks to adding another great entry to this cleanup effort

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015

#12397: Aug 25th 2019 at 2:05:14 PM

to Zackary State.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines

Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II

#12398: Aug 25th 2019 at 4:52:55 PM

Thanks, Kazuya. Then I suppose nothing prevents me from posting him.

What's the work?

Echoes. See Sasori's EP for any further information. For more information about the Madara Trio, you can also check out Tsukiyomi's EP.

Who's Amaterasu (Kitsune's World!Madara Uchiha)? What has he done?

Amaterasu is Kitsune's World's Madara Uchiha. His origins are similar to canon until his defection from Konoha, except the fact that he married someone and had children prior to his defection from Konoha. The fact that his wife and children sided with the rest of the Uchiha clan against him made him feel increasingly betrayed, to the point he wants the Uchiha clan (to whom he refers as betrayers) and Konoha destroyed. To top it off? Before Konoha's foundation, during the Warring States, the Uchiha used to be samurai. When Amaterasu's beloved bro, Izuna, kicked the bucket, Izuna made his older brother promise he would remain a samurai and follow the Bushido code to his last breath. Even after the rest of the Uchiha clan became ninjas? Amaterasu remained a samurai.

Much like canon, he attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi and was stopped by Minato, thanks to Fugaku and Mikoto (see their Hate Sink EP) revealing to them Kushina's location.

Later, Amaterasu took advantage, for the sake of his goal (throw the world in a perpetual state of warfare to improve mankind) of Fugaku and Mikoto's Evil Plan (much like canon, attempt to take over Konoha) and manipulated them into believing that he will help them (he said that he'd consider helping them... He did consider... And decided against it), so that the village will destroy itself from the inside. To top it off? Stopping the coup would require to kill the entire Uchiha clan, which also benefits Amaterasu, as not only he thinks the clan betrayed him, but also betrayed their former Evil Virtues, and is reduced to nothing more than "backstabbers and traitors". When he noticed that Shisui was spying on him while he was talking (or rather, dishing out a "The Reason You Suck" Speech) to Fugaku and Mikoto, he later talked with him, and gave him a Breaking Lecture so successful that Shisui turned into a genocidal Knight Templar Boomerang Bigot out to destroy the clan. Shisui, through a Thanatos Gambit, succeeded in destroying the clan, much to Amaterasu's delight, even though he was unable to sent the world through war.

He makes his first appearance in the fourth chapter, being recruited by Susanoo and Tsukiyomi in their attempt to harness Kazama's power (which allows him to travel between mirror universes) for their own selves. After discussing the Uchiha clan's fates in their universes, the newly-formed Madara Trio decides, under Tsukiyomi's suggestion, to wait for Kazama's group, the future Arashi clan to enter the hotel in which they left their equipment to attack them. When they attack the Arashi clan, Amaterasu ends up fighting Kitsune (Insane!Naruto), and completely wastes him, easily adapting to his fighting style with fencing attacks. When Chibaku tries to help, the results aren't any better : Amaterasu still won with ease, quickly adapting to the new threat (Amaterasu's got hundreds of weapons, he knew which one he had to pull exactly to adapt to Kitsune and Chibaku's attacks). Easily defeated by the Madara Trio, the Arashi clan flees to another universe. When Tsukiyomi went through a Villainous Breakdown and blamed Susanoo for immediately attacking them instead of trying to negotiate, who promptly got angry and started to argue with him, Amaterasu calm them down, arguing that each minute spent bickering is one Kazama and his posse uses to distance the trio. To top it off, the trio's travel between universes already takes more time than the Arashi clan's, since they have to manually navigate through the way Kazama creates between worlds. Thus, the Madara trio needs to hurry up in order to keep their advantage. Tsukiyomi and Susanoo wisely listens to him, before following the Arashi clan to the Wave-Verse. The Trio pursue the Arashi clan there and kill Wave-Verse!Nagato and Wave-Verse!Konan, while also searching for this world's Madara in hopes of recruiting him. Then, they discusses their motives.^note Susanoo finally discovers the Arashi Clan's location, which leads us to the three-way battle between the Arashi Clan (Kazama/Original Naruto, Chibaku/Puppeteer Naruto, Kitsune/Insane Naruto, Naruko/Female Naruto, Chibaku's world!Sasori, Wave-Verse!Kakashi, Wave-Verse!Sakura/Jinchuriki!Sakura, Wave-Verse!Naruto, Wave-Verse!Sasuke), vs Wave-Verse!Zabuza's posse (Zabuza, gender-lifted Haku, Kimimaro, Kisame) and of course the Madara Trio. Kitsune, Kisame and Zabuza attacked Amaterasu. When fighting Kisame, Amaterasu only relied on his weapon, preventing Kisame's use of ninjutsu by targeting his arms all the time. This leads to Amaterasu successfully killing Kisame. Not even Zabuza and Kitsune's Enemy Mine against him can prevent him from talking the advantage.

When Jinchuriki!Sakura crossed the Despair Event Horizon and released the Kyuubi, Amaterasu fought it, barely surviving it's first attack thanks to Izanagi. Then, Amaterasu used his anti-Bijuu technique (all Eight Gates + His five hearts - result of the Earth Grudge Fear he had taken from Kakuzu's dead body long ago - multiplying the amount of chakra and damage) to obliterate the Kyuubi. However, he lost his eyes and also wiped out the entire land of the Waves in the process. Using Itachi's eyes, Amaterasu regained his vision. He then left alongside the rest of the Madara Trio to Responsible!Tsunade's world. There, when attempting to recruit this world's Madara, they discover he already kicked the bucket. Estimating that they're well above the heroes in strength, that their travel time between universes takes much more time than the Arashi clan (by the time they arrived in Responsible!Tsunade's world, the Arashi clan had already left to another world), Amaterasu suggests to stop trying to recruit other Madaras and quickly catch up with the anti-heroes before they get stronger. They catch up to them in another world... Unfortunately for them, it's in the Yet again, with a little extra help world, and Ghost teleport them to Hiroshima, only seconds before the atomic bomb blows up. However, they're rescued by Amatsu-Mikaboshi, out of gratitude towards Tsukiyomi (he put him inside Kazama, thus allowing Amatsu-Mikaboshi to corrupt him, and also broke Izanagi's decree, which also benefited Amatsu-Mikaboshi).

The Madara Trio's final appearance is in Responsible!Jiraya's world, with Amaterasu wiping out a neighboring village because he thought the villagers were too weak : instead of running away or fighting back, they chose to hope for Jiraya to show up, angering Amaterasu. The Trio engaged the Arashi clan, who are helped by Responsible!Jiraya, Responsible!Jiraya's world!Naruto and Kuebiko. Amaterasu ended up fighting Zabuza and Jiraya... Due to his code of honor and his Evil Virtues, he ends up giving more or less a fair chance of winning to the duo, who promptly takes it by fighting dirty. However, it's not without losses : Zabuza was already dying from blood loss when the fight was over and Jiraya was permanently scarred. Dying, Amaterasu defies the Villainous Breakdown trope, congratulates the duo for their victory over him, reassures a dying Zabuza that his legacy (Haku, Zabuza's adoptive daughter) will surpass him, reflects on his mistakes, calmly accepts his death, and passes on, surprisingly peacefully.

Is he charming? Intelligent?

Amaterasu: Astonishing... I could kill a Bijuu... and you two managed to beat me. To beat the unstoppable. Congratulations, worthy warriors. You won.

Responsible!Jiraya: You don't seem so surprised. No mental breakdown?

Amaterasu: I have prepared for my death, ever since I chose how to live my life. A violent life leads to a violent death. The important thing, is to die with meaning and honor. Just like we did.

Responsible!Jiraya: It could have ended differently.

Amaterasu: No. No, it couldn't have. I was what remained of a dead era. My end was simply inevitable. Izuna made me promise on his deathbed to never renege on my loyalty to our code and honor. I followed this promise, even as my own clan turned to the ninja way, until the very end. That is all that matters.

He is. Easily. Absolutely. The guy is could've been the living definition of Affably Evil if it wasn't for Hank Scorpio and the Mayor of Sunnydale. He's polite, he keeps his word, always tells the truth, and unlike canon Madara who would belittle anyone who isn't named Guy or Hashirama, if you do something he considers impressive, Amaterasu would consider you a Worthy Opponent even if he's toying with you. When he's dying? No Villainous Breakdown. He congratulates Wave-Verse!Zabuza and Responsible!Jiraya for defeating him, calmly accepts his demise and reflects on his mistakes.

In the fanfiction in itself, he's the living definition of Evil Is Cool. He opened all Eight Chakra Gates and obliterated the Kyuubi of that world - and surviving the use of such a Dangerous Forbidden Technique. The sheer force of the attack took the entire Land of Waves with it, killing everyone in the country. Oh, and before that? He killed Kisame and defeated Kitsune in one blow! And he's blind.

To top it off, while he's an extreme case of Blood Knight, he's a Noble Demon, albeit a Deconstruction of the trope. In Kuebiko's words : "The Bushido, the samurai code, promotes values like honor, duty, and courage, but it is incompatible with peace and evolution. That is why the ninjas replaced the samurais, because their continued existence had trapped civilization in a feudal age of warfare, where the strong oppressed the weak and where strength was more important than happiness and prosperity."

There is no escape, Shisui, no other way. There will be either a war or total destruction for the clan.

He's also a long-term planner, as proven with his plans against Konoha. He used Fugaku and Mikoto to destroy the village from the inside. While it survived, to say Konoha was in good shape... Would be false. Heck, his whole plan against Konoha and the world (for the sake of war, as he believes that humanity only thrives in times of conflict) is a long-term plan : he plans to cause a civil war through Fugaku and Mikoto's stupid actions, which would then lead to the Fourth Ninja War will begin. At this moment, the delicate balance between the Hidden Villages will be heavily threatened, and the world return in a state of eternal warfare, which is ultimately what Amaterasu wants. Heck, even if the world isn't thrown in warfare, Amaterasu wins anyway, as stopping his plan would require destroying the Uchiha clan, thus fulfilling his vengeance against the clan.

Thinking on his feet?

Spying on people, Shisui? This is not polite to listen to the doors.

Yup. Another point for him. When Jiraya used a seal to prevent him from warping space, Amaterasu reveals that his pocket dimension can still do it on its own, thus allowing him to use it as a weapon launcher instead.

When Shisui spies on him while he's talking with Kitsune's World!Fugaku and Mikoto (or more accurately, giving them a "The Reason You Suck" Speech), Amaterasu decides not to tell Fugaku and Mikoto, later talks with Shisui, and gives him a Breaking Lecture so devastating Shisui went from a Nice Guy to a genocidal Knight Templar hell-bent on destroying the Uchihas, exactly what Amaterasu needed.

Losing his eyes due to Izanagi and his anti-Biju technique doesn't stop him either, as he had a contingency plan : after killing Itachi, he hid his eyes for later use, and used them in his last battle.

He has hundreds of weapons. Yet, he knows exactly which one to pull out to adapt to his opponent's fighting style. Kitsune and Chibaku found out the hard way.

What about the competition?

Amaterasu hasn't directly fought Sasori nor Tsukiyomi. Thus, it's hard to compare him to these two. However, Amaterasu has made much less appearances than both of these characters, and still manages to stand out, to the point he remains an Ensemble Dark Horse (third most popular Echoes character) even after his demise. As for Izanami, she appears only after Amaterasu's demise. Chibaku, Sasori's student, proves to be just as smart (but he has much more standards, thus he's more of a Guile Hero than a Magnificent Bastard) as his mentor and has actually directly fought Amaterasu... Amaterasu No Sells all of his Xanatos Speed Chess attempts. Pass.

Is he a bastard? Too much of a bastard?

Amaterasu: Tell me… what do you see?"

Shisui: Ko… Konoha… the Hidden Village of the leaves…

Amaterasu: I see the most despicable place on earth. If the sentence 'I spit on you' was written on all walls of this damn city, it wouldn't even be close of representing a tenth of the sheer hate I have for this land and the worms populating it.

Easily. He's a Blood Knight, a Social Darwinist, he wiped out an entire country, slaughtered armies, is a Hero Killer (he killed Zabuza and Kisame, permanently scarred Responsible!Jiraya, almost killed Kitsune...), his actions directly led to his own clan's destruction and indirectly made Kitsune's life a living hell. He Would Hurt a Child if he thinks it's necessary, he's not above breaking the cutie, much less killing the cutie, as Shisui and Kitsune can tell. His objective is to sent the world through a permanent state of warfare because he believes that mankind improve through war. When the guy refers to himself as "War made Flesh", he's not kidding. The guy's got more corpses on him than Big L's got bars.

That said? His love for his bro (and even his ex-wife) is completely genuine, he has a code of honor, he's a man of his word, the reason he wants his own clan dead isn't because of boomerang bigotry, but because he believes the clan lost their Evil Virtues in the present day. To top it off, he never engages in something truly despicable. He even pets the dog in his last moments, reassuring a dying Zabuza that the latter's adoptive daughter Haku will surpasse him. Heck, to top it off? When he has a vision of the Omnicidal Maniac!Naruto wiping out Konoha (all the while mocking the dying Third Hokage and planning to wipe out the rest of the world) through a War for Fun and Profit (especially the fun part), you'd expect him to celebrate Konoha's destruction, as he despises the village with a burning passion... But no. Alongside the rest of the Madara Trio, he's freaking horrified by Omnicidal Maniac!Naruto's sadism. He also never lies, and despises treachery, even though he has no problems with Exact Words. While Tsukiyomi relies on Half-Truth to manipulate people, Amaterasu prefers to tell the entire truth, just the truth from his point of view.