During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I noticed that xemnas is listed as an MB. I would like contest against this. He appears to have completely dropped the stealth approach in the chronological prequel. Doing so ensured that sora and company learned what he was doing and put a stop to it. There's also the matter of him being an Orcus on His Throne; he does do anything (at least on-screen), having his henchman do the dirty work for him in both Days and KH 2 until you have to fight him. Considering Authority Equals Asskicking applies here, he doesn't seem to have any excuse for being more active, other than he has to lose.
Everyone look at my sandboxPretty sure Orcus on His Throne is not an auto disqualifier. Just because a villain isn't active in the plot, doesn't mean they aren't orchestrating it.
Take Ganondorf for instance. Link meets him at the beginning in a nightmare, but later on, he meets him for real and he doesn't do much. However, he was able to stealthily wait in the Temple of Time for Link to unseal the Master Sword so he could seize the Triforce. If their end goal results in a metaphorical checkmate, I don't see an issue with Xemnas counting, and that's exactly what happens. Keep in mind, a MB doesn't have to win all the time.
The issue here is that xemnas dug his own grave by making easily avoidable mistakes. Why would he abandon a tactic (stealth) that worked so well in the past?
Also, in Ganondorf's case, he succeeded in taking over Hyrule for several years even though he didn't need to do much besides wait for the heroes.
Everyone look at my sandboxSo you are inferring that a Magnificent Bastard can't make mistakes?
I disagree. Even the best, most brilliant manipulators have screwed up at times. It's all a part of being a Manipulative Bastard (which is oft a requirement for an MB.)
No, what disqualifies a candidate like you are talking, is if the entire cast has the Idiot Ball just so this one character can succeed. Like Lelouch from Code Geass. Both Xemnas and Fawful, despite making mistakes, still manipulated some pretty intelligent people. Granted, some parts required someone not so bright, but still.
Fact is, both Xemnas and Fawful nearly won. Fawful took over the Mushroom Kingdom, and Xemnas hijacked Kingdom Hearts from all the hearts they stole from every Heartless Sora killed. Not only that, but Sora had no choice but to kill the Heartless, lest someone else dear lost their heart.
Edited by Klavice on Aug 12th 2019 at 10:24:20 AM
I don't think so, but I'll say that he's a
for me that nearly all of his crimes were committed in a flashback and none of it comes off as magnificence. Just a foolish, emotionally-compromised man who decided to use a Fantastic Nuke to avenge and revive one Fairy Pokémon. And that was portrayed as a colossal mistake.
Let's not forget he also got captured by Team Flare and was virtually a non-entity for the majority of the X and Y games.
Edited by Shadao on Aug 12th 2019 at 11:38:20 AM
Yeah, Xemnas letting his lackeys do his dirty work? Strengthens his MB cred. And after Ansem was beaten Xemnas had to be more active. And Sora learns about the Org from Yen Sid. I ferl these arguments don't really make sense. Or, rather, I'm hot quite sure what you're trying to say. Some have argued Xemnas is too cruel, which I understand but disagree with - this I'm having trouble grasping.
This thread seems to be going well. I won't vote but keep it up.
I think something like this:
- Yes: Kazuya, G, Lrrose, Imperial, ANew, Elfen, Klavice, Shadao (8)
- No: Scraggle, 43110, Lighty, Overlord, Mir, Ravok, Awesome, Bull, falcon, Riley (10)
- Abstain: Georgie, Polar, Austin, Doc (4)
Someone might wanna double check that though, since there was a big gap between the initial EP and most of the first round votes coming in and then a lot of flip-flopping following the repost and Ravok's points.
compared to Giovanni and Colress who just smirk as if to say "Bring it on!" to legendaries, yeah I'm still not feeling Lysandre.
But Lysandre outright did say "Bring it on!" to Zygarde 100% form - he just said it with a stone-cold serious glare and one shout of "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT!". Again, that he's unflinching in his resolve and able to make a coherent point about his position even when on the brink of total madness is something I think strengthens his magnificence credentials rather than weakens them. Heck, even as he dies, he's NOT screaming This Cannot Be!! or something like Ravok claimed, he is still ordering his weapon to move and strike at his enemies. He literally goes down still putting up a fight, fighting for what he believes in to the very end. Certainly more dignified than, say, Anime!Cyrus jumping into a universe that's fading from existence while screaming that "IT'S MINE ALOOOONE!".
So I'm in total disagreement that his Villainous Breakdown was something that made him look pathetic. He only at one point says something Ghetsis-esque about how his careful plans cannot come apart like this, but otherwise there's more bravado and context to his final ravings than what Ravok was making it out to be.
Did we discuss AZ though? If anyone from XY could count, I feel AZ is the best bet.
AZ barely even appeared in the game, wasn't particularly charming, and years ago he'd actually succeeded in a mass murder like what Lysandre attempted, using a heinous soul-sucking weapon that he created. I fail to see any magnificence there.
Edited by ANewMan on Aug 13th 2019 at 9:36:39 AM
I want to note one other thing about Butcher, too...Billy goading Hughie into killing him? He claims he killed Hughie's parents, and coldly describes how he did so, giving Hughie an exact description of them, and their house so hughie snaps and stabs him to death.
....Turns out? They're fine. Billy just stopped by for drinks a few weeks ago, in preparation of maybe needing to goad Hughie into killing him. He's a vicious, selfish and ultimately bad person, but he's got a lot of depth to him.
Alright, I just came back from vacation.
to most of the candidates I missed, especially Adventures!Giovanni and Cyrus.
But I'm unsure on anime!Lysandre. Sure, his Villainous Breakdown is coupled with Villain Has a Point, but his dying moments are him refusing to accept his own loss in both Japanese and English, which greatly muddles things. Even Cyrus had a more dignified exit than that (and on a side note, his exit was a lot more dignified in the Japanese version where he was not shouting like in the English version). The reason why I haven't proposed anime!Cyrus yet is because his callousness was a turn off for me during my initial examination for candidates. But I might look at him again at some point in the future.
Lysandre dies screaming "Not yet, it's not over yet!" before desperately yelling to the Great Rock "Move! MOVE!"
That's literally This Cannot Be! He's refusing to accept defeat, screaming that it can't end like this, and yelling for his machine (which is exploding around him) to "MOVE!", and beforehand, when he was being beaten, he starts raving "It can't be, this is a mistake, all my meticulous planning was perfect!!"
This isn't a man clinging to his ideals to the very end, this is a man in panic mode, freaking out because "all his meticulous planning" is being undone, and dying while pointlessly screaming for his machine to "move". Not to "continue the mission," but to just "MOVE" out of the way of the freaking laser beam destroying it.
'Yes' to the Boys candidates, especially Stillwell.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 13th 2019 at 11:05:24 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I'll say This Cannot Be! isn't a DQ in and of itself - Castlevania's Dracula is one of the poster boys there and he keeps. It's all about how it's played.
Still abstaining on Lysandre though since I don't know him and can't comment.
Btw Jackie has said he's not covering The Boys show version for MB purposes and Kylo has graciously allowed me to collab with him so we'll take the next season whenever we get a more definitive estimate for release.
Edit: Apparently set for a 2020 release.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 13th 2019 at 6:21:33 AM
Reading the arguments for and against him and remembering my impressions about the character... I'm going to say keep for Xemnas.
As for Lysandre... I'm keeping my abstain. His Villainous Breakdown is hard and it may be too much for me. But the arguments for him are quite strong too.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Aug 13th 2019 at 12:36:56 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

to Billy Butcher
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff