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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11951: Aug 7th 2019 at 7:51:10 PM

@ Stell, Thanks mate, wanna rip on over to the drafts and fire that in?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11953: Aug 8th 2019 at 3:45:36 AM

I cut this from The Handmaiden. I know Lighty did the CM entry for the Uncle, so I'll let him weigh in on this:

  • Magnificent Bitch: Lady Hideko definitely qualifies. Fujiwara is highly intelligent, Sook-hee is a hardened survivor and an excellent thief, but only Hideko is shown to be immune to any of the manipulations from the other schemers. She quickly sees through Fujiwara's ruse and easily takes to being a mastermind that it was her idea to get a maid and send her to the asylum under her name which would prevent any attempts of Kouzuki finding out anything about her if she escaped.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11954: Aug 8th 2019 at 3:46:12 AM

Already did the post and writeup. I’m submitting it this Sunday.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11955: Aug 8th 2019 at 3:49:10 AM

Yeah, I just saw Hideko in the Drafts. Nevermind [lol] I removed the current one from the YMMV; I'll let you add the new one whenever you do that. BTW, please don't forget to add Joker's MB entry to The Joker.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#11956: Aug 8th 2019 at 12:38:30 PM

Writeup for the Shredder:

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Legends: Soul's Winter: Oroku Saki AKA Shredder, as presented in this darker take on TMNT franchise, is a powerful Japanese Samurai lord, who has a long history with the Turtles and Splinter. Being their sworn enemy, Shredder at one point has a mental fight with Splinter, solely to draw him out to the open, so that Shredder could surround them with his Foot Clan warriors. Managing to quickly overwhelm them, Shredder decided to let them go, enjoying feeling of victory and desiring to feel it again in the future. Sensing that Splinter summoned a great God of the animals, Animus, to cure one of the wounded turtles, Shredder immediately tracks down their location and after easily apprehending an attacking Mutant Turtle, healed the wounded Turtle and when asked why, he answered "Everything beautiful... Bleeds".

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#11957: Aug 8th 2019 at 12:57:45 PM

Ok here's an effortpost I've made that I'll post again to see if anyone is on board with it since I'm thinking of revisiting some effortposts I did but fell off the radar and never did a writeup for. It's from the same universe that gave us a CM version of the former British prime minister that I effortposted recently that we decided wasn't too controversial of an upvote.

What is the Work?

Red World is a Game Mod for the World War II simulator Hearts of Iron IV. The point of divergence is the Soviet Union maintaining a positive outlook on Stalin's legacy rather than condemning it, total Communist victory in the Korean War and a much earlier Communist victory in the Indochina war. This leads to the fragmentation of the United States. One of the successor states to rise out of the fall of the United States is the American People's Commonwealth, a socialist state in the East Coast of the US formed by anarchists and socialists that view the Soviet Union and Stalinism as a disgrace to socialist ideals. The APC, while more democratic than the Soviet Union is subject to corruption and massive gridlock, and having right wing views in the APC can render you a social pariah. Recently the younger politicians in the APC's central committee have started to believe that there may be a point in Lenin and Stalin's more totalitarian ideals, and seeks to destroy democracy in the APC and establish ties with the Warsaw Pact to create a more effective government; they are opposed by the older APC leaders, whom are lead by Noam Chomsky and still believe in democratic socialism. In the shadows a Neo-Nazi Christian fundamentalist terror cell led by a radicalized Mike Pence plots to destroy socialism in the APC.

Everything comes to a head on May 1st, 2010, when one of the Neo-Nazi terror cells bomb the World Trade Center. At this moment, both Noam Chomsky and the Central Committee(as well as the Neo Nazis themselves if the player took no action to stop right wing terrorism in the APC) make their move to stop the other side. However, they are not the only ones seeking power, for the true mastermind of the 5/1 bombings is also throwing his hat in the ring, using the growing pro-democratic(as in capitalist democracy) movement as his pawns.....

Who is He?

Vermont Governor Bernie Sanders. In 1990, some time after the dissolution of the United States, Bernie was on a goodwill trip to socialist Portugal(which chose to oppose the Soviet bloc) on Chomsky's advice. While he was away however, the then governor of Vermont ordered the mass execution of various political opponents. Among the victims of this purge was Bernie's entire family. While Chomsky leaped into action on his friend's behalf calling for the governor's resignation and trial before the Central Committee, Bernie vowed revenge.

While still committed to improving the livelihood of Americans, Bernie abandoned democratic socialism that day in favor of a warped ideology combining American ultranationalism, the totalitarianism of Stalinism, and the Trotskyist desire to spread the "revolution" as far as possible. He vowed revenge and sought to destroy the APC government, and transform it to a new regime reflecting his new ideology. To this end he armed far right terrorist movements with the means to destroy the WTC and infiltrated the pro-democracy grassroots in the APC.

One of the options the player can take after 5/1 is to fire the New York governor for incompetence. This rallies a large pro-democratic movement against the APC government, which is co-opted by Sanders in a charismatic speech where he promises a "political revolution" to restore democracy. This grassroots movements grows to include conservative rebels and even some members of the banned Communist party. This massive wave of support allows Bernie to be appointed as part of the Central Committee. Sanders then exploits the factional divides between Chomsky and the New Guard, and drawing on grassroots and worker support, gains more and more power; appointing his supporters into positions in the government. He then uses this momentum to create the Socialist party and run for the presidency of the APC.

Bernie wins the election by a landslide, but before inauguaration, information is given to APC politician Bill Gates that Sanders provided the means for the Neo-nazi attack on the WTC. Depending on player choices, Sanders could either be exposed and executed by beheading in an unknown location by an angry mod, or he could send an assassin to kill Gates, and pin the assassination on the remnants of the US federal government in the Deep South, starting a retaliatory war in response. Alternatively Gates does nothing and saves his skin...but Sanders launches his retaliatory war anyways on the basis that the US remnants funds far-right terrorism in the APC.

Assuming Sanders safely makes it into the presidency, he calls for the arrest of many pacifists and elements of the pro-democracy forces, denouncing them as traitors despite their support of him. He organizes a massive nationwide conscription, and arrests various Trade Council leaders in charge of the APC economy. He launches propaganda campaigns to discredit all his enemies in the APC government and the dissolution of congress. With this done, Sanders proclaims himself dictator of the Greater American Union. He then purges everyone tied to the Chomsky administration and the Central Committee, and demolishes the former capital of Philadelphia. If he won the war vs. the remnants, he arrests their leaders and executes them. He also establishes a massive cult of personality and seeks to spread his "revolution" across all North America in order to form his own socialist union: the North American Union.

If he consolidates power however....it's not all that bad. He offers significant support to rebuilding crumbled infrastructure across America. He also allows freedom of religion and guarantees fair wages for all and provides significant support to farmers.

Eventually, Bernie dies of a heart attack and the power struggle starts again, this time it could result in transition to power to his handpicked sucessor, the Trotskyist Jeff Mackler, or alternatively the National Syndicalists or the pro-Soviet faction of the new order. Alternatively it is possible for pro-democratic, hard-right or religious fundamentalist(through not as fascistic as Pence's gang, but led by someone that's quite odious in his own right: Fred Phelps) movements to take over.

How do his actions show he’s a Magnificent Bastard?

This incarnations of Bernie Sanders plays everyone, from Neo-Nazis to Chomsky and his loyalists, to democratic activists and even his own base as fiddles to achieve his own political goals. He uses charisma co-opt the pro democracy movements and uses them to further climb up the ranks of the APC government and manipulates existing tensions between Chomsky and the Central Committee to gain more political influence as part of the Central Committee. The narrative presents these efforts as immensely successful.

How much of a bastard is he? Too much of one?

He's a willing to use Neo Nazis as pawns to achieve his own political goals; said manuver leading to attacks causing the deaths of thousands. He establishes a brutal totalitarian regime with mass purges and is a warmonger willing to spread his twisted brand of "socialism" combining elements from both Stalin and Trotsky's ideologies along with American ultranationalism. So he's quite the bastard.

But is he too much of a bastard? I don't think so. His motives are presented by the narrative as sympathetic and he genuinely thinks he's avenging his family by establishing the Greater American Union dictatorship. And while he used Neo Nazis to achieve his political goals, he is not a Politically Incorrect Villain—the narrative presents him as providing religious freedom for religious groups and appalled by the actions of the fascist leadership in Montana and the Union of Lincoln towards African-Americans and invades them to bring them to justice for their crimes. So it's clear that Bernie does not share the hateful ideological worldviews of his pawns. And we've upvoted figures that used really odious and hateful figures as pawns to achieve their goals before(Huey Long from Kaiserreich, Rau Le Creuset from Gundam Seed, Zytek from Block 109). He's also fairly benevolent as a Supreme Leader to those that toe the line. This is because he rebuilds infrastructure devastated by the American collapse, enacts policies to help farmers and providing fair income for American workers. Furthermore if Chomsky wins the power struggle against the Stalinist/pro-Soviet faction in the APC(Chomsky might be worth an effortpost too due to some of the methods he takes to stop the rise of totalitarianism in the APC), he lets go of any enmity he has towards the anarchists and socialists and helps Chomsky draft a more democratic constitution.

Any other mitagating factors?

That he's a real and still living person?

However giving that we've upvoted Will Wheaton from TBT before as a MB and Theresa Brasier's incarnation in the same setting as a CM without too much of a hassle, I'm not sure if this is too much of an issue. Much like the CM incarnation of Brasier in this setting, this version of Bernie also has little resemblance to the real life Bernie Sanders apart from being from Vermont(his political career is also different, being a governor much later in the 2000s instead of the 1980s) so I don't think this might breach the ROCEJ. There is also no political agenda I can observe by the creator of Red World to smear the real Bernie Sanders.

Verdict?

[tup] from me, I might discuss RW!Chomsky in the future.

Edited by xie323 on Aug 8th 2019 at 1:13:04 AM

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#11958: Aug 8th 2019 at 1:36:10 PM

[tup]Bernie

I swear to God that we've already discussed a Paradox game mod version of Bernie before.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#11959: Aug 8th 2019 at 1:40:25 PM

[tup] Bernie or bust.

...It was fun said that but damn, it felt dirty.

Also, Chomsky? That Mod seems crazy, where and how I can try read the lore?

Watch me destroying my country
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#11960: Aug 8th 2019 at 1:43:23 PM

[up][up]I believe it's the same Bernie, but he never got added and I think we've had a few people flip their opinions on him since then.

For the record, I'll just abstain. Wil Wheaton is kind of a one-of-a-kind example when it comes to living, real people because he engaged in some serious Adam Westing. I won't say no because the depiction sounds respectful, but I don't feel comfortable saying yes either.

Edited by DocSharp on Aug 8th 2019 at 1:44:54 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#11962: Aug 8th 2019 at 1:54:41 PM

Here's the lore on Red World:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDqm3KAbZg

And yeah I E Ped this guy before but I never got around to doing a writeup. So I decided to do it again to see if anyone would be on board with this.

Edited by xie323 on Aug 8th 2019 at 1:58:31 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#11964: Aug 8th 2019 at 4:34:24 PM

[tup] to another Bernie Sanders (definitely prefer him as president over others)

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#11965: Aug 8th 2019 at 4:50:22 PM

[up]Actually, this is the same Bernie Sanders. xie just reproposed him.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11966: Aug 8th 2019 at 4:51:18 PM

I'm really not comfortable with the way this mod seems to like writing still living people. If the thread really wants to see this go up sure but I'm not voting on it.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#11967: Aug 8th 2019 at 4:58:17 PM

I am abstaining on the guy who used to own Pooh's house, for 43's reasons. Admittedly, I have my own reasons why I do not really like him in real life, but I would rather not talk about it on this website, especially because those reasons involve his stances on polarizing topics.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 8th 2019 at 9:00:11 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#11968: Aug 8th 2019 at 5:30:00 PM

Ok...So, to kind of distract myself, I have a music candidate:

What's the work?

Kamelot is a power metal band from Tampa, FL, mainly known for their two concept albums: Epica and The Black Halo, with incredible vocals from their former singer Roy Khan...the story? Is a retelling of Faust. Mephisto, the evil archangel, was cast from heaven for refusing to kneel before man and challenges god to a wager: if he can claim the soul of god's favorite man, an alchemist and scholar known as Ariel, then Mephisto will be allowed back into heaven...Ariel hungers to know more about the world's mysteries, and departs his village, and love Helena to discover more...and so begins the story.

And our MB? Guess.

Who is Mephisto?

Mephisto's great sin? When mankind was created by god, Mephisto refused to bow, seeing them as flawed, inferior creatures while only God was worthy of his devotion. Cast out for this, Mephisto becomes the Devil, tempting and claiming souls while chilling in an epic castle on earth. With his bargain set, Mephisto begins his corruption of Ariel.

Allowing Ariel to wander with no answers, Mephisto slowly tempts him with visions of himself, particularly when Ariel is high on opium, until Ariel is left at the lowest point, despairing and broken....before his suicide, Mephisto appears to him in the song "Descent of the Archangel," where he appears "on angel wings, in white," vowing to make Ariel's dreams come true, offering him a deal with the caveat that Ariel's soul shall be his once he does. Manipulating Ariel to his castle, Mephisto visits upon him a lavish party, in "A Feast For The Vain", as he tricks Ariel into signing the contract....with one caveat from Ariel: His soul will only be Mephisto's when Ariel reaches a point of joy that he wishes will go on forever...Mephisto agrees, and then springs his trap: he has lured in Helena, Ariel's old love, and sets them together, knowing Ariel will love her perfectly, and/or destroy her....the latter occurs when Ariel abandons Helena, prompting her suicide (when she's pregnant, no less)...Mephisto appears to Ariel at the final song of Epica, Ill Ways to Epica and rationalizes her death as "when you play with fire, you must anticipate some burns!" And "You would not know sadness if you never tasted joy! That's the curse of humans, born in passion, you destroy."

Broken, Ariel flees into the wilderness when the Black Halo picks up, as Mephisto seeks to rebuild Ariel as corrupted to claim his soul for good. In "March of Mephisto," Mephisto succeeds utterly, and introduces Ariel to a woman named Marguerite who's a dead ringer for Helena...he bids Ariel to seduce her, making Ariel his, when Ariel's conscience prompts him to flee and ponder the ultimate mysteries again...realizing his own damnation, he heads to confront Mephisto at the devil's own palace, coming to the conclusion that the answers he seek cannot be found on earth...the contentment he finds in this triggers the bargain and Mephisto moves to claim his soul at last, only for God himself to intervene with Helena, as Mephisto's pact is null and void thanks to the spirit of humanity, and how Ariel holds to his beliefs and to love and self sacrifice even though he believes he's damned. Ariel dies redeemed, joining Helena in heaven as Mephisto is cast into hell.

How's he operate?

Maybe I'm biased because Roy Khan is an incredible vocalist, but smoothly. Mephisto is charming, charismatic and ruthless, with his songs emphasizing his intelligence and manipulative nature. Descent of the Archangel? He lays the bargain flat out and people still take it, with him adopting beautiful guises to sway them into his pacts. Throughout the albums, Mephisto is always a step ahead, guiding Ariel to damnation and darkness, with only a loophole from god rescuing Ariel at the end.

The 'harshest' song is March of Mephisto where Black Metalist Shagrath voices Mephisto in the chorus...and it's still pretty badass and awesome throughout.

Is he a bastard?

He's the devil. He claims souls, and he intends to corrupt and destroy Ariel throughout the song. His reaction to Helena's suicide is "Meh, shit happens, get over it" and he guides Ariel to seduce Marguerite to corrupt him further....that said, Mephisto's got charm and class, he never murders anyone or guides them to any disgusting crimes (no rape or anything) and honestly, he seems to have gotten....kind of a bum deal from heaven as God kicked him out for disdaining humanity, and he just wants back in from where he thinks he was unjustly exiled.

Conclusion?

I'd say he's an easy keep.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#11971: Aug 8th 2019 at 5:40:00 PM

Yes to Mimsy Mephisto.

But I'm gonna say no to Bernie because I dunno, while I'm not a fan of the guy, making a MB out of a real person that isn't dead kinda rubs me the wrong way.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#11972: Aug 8th 2019 at 5:41:08 PM

[tup] to Mephisto

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 8th 2019 at 5:42:12 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11973: Aug 8th 2019 at 5:59:29 PM

Actually I think I'll amend my Bernie abstain vote to a thumbs down.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#11974: Aug 8th 2019 at 6:01:06 PM

[tup] Mephistopheles.

Now, you may laugh at me, but I have a visual pun that I would like to suggest as an image for MB. If the thread doesn't like it, I won't use it as an image suggestion.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/a479_1_53058ffe_aa15_48d2_8398_7b69714c1001.jpg
We couldn't find a picture of a charming schemer. However, this bastard sword is as magnificent as they come.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11975: Aug 8th 2019 at 6:04:11 PM

We let a similar one go up for CM, I'm fine with a visual pun too. Given this trope can't really be depicted in an image, it'll probably be the closest visualization we can get.


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