During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Being overconfident isn't alone to be a Smug Snake, you need to be overconfident and make some Epic Fail in your plans, not just failure, but complete total fail.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 6th 2019 at 9:15:15 AM
Watch me destroying my countryThat's true, Kaz. Incompetence, or at least oversight due to arrogance, is a key part of being a Smug Snake.
Anyone have an effortpost?
Edited to remove what I believe could be mistaken for Pseudo-Moderation.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 6th 2019 at 10:47:24 AM
Also grabbing this unapproved entry from YMMV.The Practice:
- Magnificent Bastard: Joey Heric, hands down.
ZCE. I know nothing about this show but I swear if this guy has anything to do with defending the Complete Monster listed on the same page then NFW to him.
Now that Giovanni has been given the
, I'd like to propose candidate number 2: Cyrus.
Who is Cyrus? What does he do?
Cyrus, like in the games, is the Boss of Team Galactic, and the Big Bad of the Diamond and Pearl Chapter. Growing up in Sunyshore City, Cyrus was neglected by his parents and left indoors to tinker with machines. Cyrus observed that machines had fixed mechanisms and natures, and quickly became obsessed with the idea of creating a universe where everyone was like machines. Cyrus saw that for the world to be complete; Emotion, Willpower and Knowledge must either coexist or not exist at all. But he saw that the world lacked all three traits together, and thus deemed the world incomplete. And thus, he founded Team Galactic to make his dream a reality.
It's revealed late in the story that Team Rocket member Sird of the Three Beasts was actually a spy for Team Galactic. Cyrus entrusted her to infiltrate Team Rocket in order to capture Deoxys, and later on manipulate Emerald Big Bad Guile Hideout into capturing Jirachi, in his research of Pokemon from outer space. This makes Cyrus by proxy the Greater-Scope Villain of the FireRed & LeafGreen and ''Emerald Chapters.
The Dex Holders' first encounter with Cyrus was in Mt. Coronet, evolving his Nosepass and Magneton. Sensing the Dex Holders' presence, he proceeds to use his newly evolved Pokemon to trap them beneath some rubble that nearly kills them, for "disturbing sacred ground".
The Dex Holders meet Cyrus once again at the Celestic Ruins, where they discover Cyrus at the cave. Cynthia's Garchomp quickly attacks Cyrus, but he tricks Garchomp into blowing an entrance into the cave. He then proceeds to start examining and taking photos of the wall paintings. He's challenged by Diamond and Pearl who try and take steal his camera from him. After a brief scuffle, they managed to break the camera. Unperturbed, Cyrus simply starts fighting a bit more seriously, Cyrus traps the boys on top of a stone pillar while he makes his leave.
Cyrus then enacts his plan to capture the Lake Guardians. He had Saturn build the Galactic Bomb, while having Mars attack the Valley Windworks in order to steal the electricity needed to power the bomb. Cyrus detonates the bomb in one of the three lakes (which lake only he himself knows in order to divide his enemies). He targets Lake Valour, rationalising that if "Willpower" is weakened, it would be easier to capture the Lake Guardians. His lieutenants proceed to defeat the Dex Holders and capture the weakened Guardians. Cyrus then uses their powers to create the Red Chain, the tool he needs to control Dialga and Palkia.
However, just as he's finished constructing the first Red Chain, he's attacked by Cynthia. The two battle to a stalemate, but Cyrus escapes with Cynthia and her Garchomp too exhausted to pursue him. Unfortunately, he finds that the Lake Guardians have been freed by the Dex Holders who infiltrated his base, and is forced to create the second Red Chain through artificial means, resulting in a weaker substitute.
Arriving at Spear Pillar, Cyrus summons Dialga and Palkia, using the Red Chains to control them and make them fight each other. The resulting conflict damages the fabric of space and time, with which Cyrus will use to create his new world. Cyrus is then interrupted by six of the Sinnoh Gym Leaders, who despite Cyrus's best efforts, manage to destroy the artificial Red Chain. In his fury, Cyrus defeats the gym leaders and left them hospitalised. Cyrus tries to control both dragons with his remaining Red Chain, but with the second one destroyed, his control over them is only half as strong. Thus, the Dex Holders attack simultaneously and defeat Cyrus, freeing Dialga and Palkia from his control. But before they could take Cyrus into custody, Giratina appears and drags Cyrus, Dialga and Palkia into the Distortion World.
In the Platinum Chapter, Cyrus is revealed to have survived, and comes across Diamond when the latter was sent to the Distortion World by Giratina. Cyrus explains to Diamond that his defeat and imprisonment in the Distortion World made him see the error of his ways. Together, they freed Dialga and Palkia from their prisons, and helps the heroes defeat his treacherous scientist Charon. With Charon and Giratina defeated, Cyrus reunites with his commanders, announcing that he will disband Team Galactic for good. However, Jupiter angrily tells him that with Cyrus gone, the commanders will have nowhere to go since society will see them as criminals. Convinced, Cyrus takes them along with him as he departs to lands unknown, thanking the Dex Holders for helping him see the error of his ways.
Is Cyrus Magnificent?
Cyrus, like his game counterpart, manages to pull off his plans near flawlessly with various contingencies, despite the setbacks and hindrances that he faced by the Dex Holders. His camera containing the information destroyed? He already had it memorised via photographic memory. In case he fails in creating the Red Chain? He reveals that he could create artificial albeit unstable copies as substitutes. The only reason why his plan falls apart was because of one of his minions, who released the Lake Guardians in exchange for the Dex Holders' own Pokedexes. He's arguably an even more dangerous fighter than that of his game counterpart, being able to fight Sinnoh Champion Cynthia to a stalemate and counter her tactics with his own.
He's also pretty Affably Evil if not an outright Cloudcuckoolander at times, always retaining a confident yet relaxed demeanour towards the people around him, even talking to a hotel concierge about philosophy. He's The Unfettered, always shrugging off whatever is thrown at him without losing his stoic expression, like getting hit by Garchomp's Draco Meteor only to immediately head off to Spear Pillar despite his injuries. He does undergo a Villainous Breakdown when the gym leaders destroy his artificial Red Chain where he actually starts bleeding tears... And proceeds to beat them all into a coma, and reverts back to his stoic self again. The second time is when Diamond gives a Shut Up, Hannibal! moment that actually causes Dialga and Palkia to stop fighting, where he proceeds to beat Diamond with the broken Red Chain. But at the same time, as he's defeated for the final time, he accepts his defeat once he realises that the Dex Holders possess the very qualities he scorned/sought for his "complete world", which leads to his eventual Heel Realization.
Is he a bastard?
Well, he is an Omnicidal Maniac who wants to destroy the universe in order to rewrite it according to his own selfish desires. There's also the fact that he very nearly killed three kids simply because they were "disturbing sacred ground".
Regarding his own men, Cyrus zigzags between Bad Boss and Benevolent Boss. On one hand, it's revealed that all of the Team Galactic grunts operate under a Hive Mind, brainwashed into following Cyrus's command like machines. On the other hand, unlike his other counterparts, he's much closer to his commanders, Jupiter even knowing where Cyrus grew up in. Even when he punishes them, it's nothing really serious. Like when Saturn used an experiment dimension portal without his permission, his response is to pinch Saturn ''really'' hard. And when Cyrus is about to confront Charon for his treachery, the commanders think that he's gonna pinch Charon. Yeah... this Cyrus is more of an oddball than his game counterpart, even more so after his Heel–Face Turn. His commanders seem to be more aware of Cyrus's grand plan, whereas in the games they were pretty much left in the dark.
Conclusion?
Arguably even more brilliant and even a bit more sympathetic than his other counterparts, I'd say Cyrus would qualify.
Edited by hittheassassin on Aug 7th 2019 at 8:22:14 PM
Sure to Cyrus.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Happy birthday Bullman. Yes to Cyrus! And by any chance do Manga! N, Colress, or Lysandre count? Lysandre is probably a no considering he blew up several towns but both N and Colress are much more "evil" than canon. I mean Evil loosely for N as he is more or less still somewhat misguided but I believe he's more in control than in canon.
As for Colress, I can't imagine him not counting from what I read.
Oh and was Mask of Ice/Pryce proposed?
Edited by Klavice on Aug 7th 2019 at 3:28:04 AM
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You know speaking of Lysandre Im still surprised that the anime version of him didn't make the cut. A real shame because he was a master planner and a popular villain
Lysandre is probably a no considering he blew up several towns
Really, that's not a disqualifier on it's own. When we have Omnicidal Maniacs like Thanos (alternate 2014 timeline version) and Cyrus as MBs, simply blowing up towns really won't disqualify somebody unless they're too sadistic and/or petty about it
In Sonic the Hedgehog: The Movie, Eggman tried to essentially blow up the surface of the planet, killing everyone. Didn't prevent him from being upvoted with surprising ease.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Perdition: Tanas is the AI responsible for returning sapience to the androids. Having once served as a conscience to the tyrannical Gomadi, he began his existence independent of him after being cast down into the abyss and devising a plot to overthrow his crueler half by granting the androids their sapience back and encouraging them into acts of violence against the executioners and the blind androids, then ensnaring them in his battery network to siphon their battery life until he becomes strong enough to take on Gomadi. If the protagonist, Eve, kills him, he will simply request that she climbs to the heavens and to oust Gomadi from his position of power and free the androids from their suffering.

I think I've brought this up before but Rau Le Cruest at one point says he is the one human to have "earned the right" to talk like he's a god. You can have a massive ego and still make this trope. Once you start letting that ego getting in the way of your ability to read opponents and adapt, that's when you're up shit creek.