During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ginji Kyuma
Oroku Saki AKA Shredder
Giovanni (we finally could judge him, so good)
Welcome to the thread, VeryVileVillian! Yes to your candidate!
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Alright, writeup time.
- Jesus Christ Superstar: Caiaphas is the intelligent High Priest of Jerusalem. When the popularity of Jesus of Nazareth puts his people at risk, Caiaphas decides to have Jesus killed to protect his people. Caiaphas proceeds to manipulate Judas Iscariot into giving him Jesus's location, exploiting his altruistic motives to make him take money for the deed. He then has Jesus brought to the Roman government, utilizing the crowd's bloodlust to force Roman governor Pontius Pilate into a corner. Caiaphas then exploits the lack of a death penalty among his community to force Pilate to execute Jesus, leaving him to take the blame for Jesus's death, succeeding in his goal and keeping his people safe.
I found this on Grimm Fairy Tales in the character page for the Queen of Spades.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 6th 2019 at 12:12:15 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."'Yes' to Giovanni and Shredder.
Here are my long overdue write-ups, as well.
- Pluto:
- Dr. Roosevelt is an advanced supercomputer who, though isolated in the body of a stuffed teddy bear, masterminds a massive portion of the plot. Serving as the personal advisor to the President of Thracia, Roosevelt uses the President as his puppet to do his bidding, notably starting a war with the only country to threaten Thracia in robotics, Persia. Having Persia decimated so as to make Thracia the undisputed strongest country in the world, Roosevelt showcases his adaptability as he then assists the revenge-seeking Abullah in his plans to destroy the world's strongest robots. Fully endorsing Abullah's plans to detonate a bomb underneath Thracia, Roosevelt reveals how he has played everyone in the hopes of the bomb triggering a chain reaction that will wipe out 90% of all human life, and leave robots to reign supreme over human life. Even as he faces death, Roosevelt simply remarks it's a "shame" that his plot failed, as it could have meant paradise for himself and fellow robots.
- The most powerful AI in the world, Goji, at first couldn't even operate thanks to the flood of information it had to deal with, but upon latching onto the personality and memories of Dr. Abullah, Goji reformats itself into a perfect mimicry of the man, including his desire for revenge following the death of his family in the Thracia-Persia war. Believing himself to be the actual "Dr. Abullah", Goji turns Abullah's robot son Sahad into the monstrous killing machine Pluto, using him to destroy the seven strongest robots in the world while Goji himself eliminates members of the Bora Investigation Squad to silence the information they possess on his plans. Displaying honor as he follows through on promises he makes, and even showing immense respect and empathy for his opponents' personal tragedies, Goji simultaneously never hesitates to use his enemies' emotional attachments to entrap them. Goji's ultimate plan is to destroy Thracia by sacrificing himself, determined to make each and every Thracian pay for the suffering their country caused Abullah in his life.
- Micronauts (IDW): In a heavy contrast to his other iterations and their psychopathic megalomania, Baron Hraal Karza is depicted here as the ruthless, yet well-intentioned, baron of defense in the empire that rules Microspace. A genius tactician who has made his own way as one of the Emperor's Co-Dragons, Karza assassinates the Emperor's son Red Falcon when he becomes insane and detrimental to the empire, then puts the Emperor himself into stasis until the empire is in a more peaceful era for him to rule. Karza does anything and everything he can to halt the approach of the Entropy Storm, fighting his fellow baron of science Daigon when the man tries to control and understand the storm, and even following the Micronauts into the storm itself in his quest to save Microspace from it. After spending eons inside the storm and discovering the creator of Microspace, Micronus Prime, Karza decides that Microspace needs to both be saved from the Entropy Storm, and to be guided into a utopia with his own hand, and to this end, teams up with everyone from the Micronauts themselves to the monstrous Dire Wraiths to use in various attempts to halt the Entropy Storm, always ready with a scheme or backstab to gain the upper hand over his supposed allies. In the end, Karza gets exactly what he wants as he uses the Micronauts and Dire Wraiths as puppets to banish the Entropy Storm from Microspace, then returns to his home hailed as a beloved hero, ready to take the reigns and rule Microspace with a firm but steady hand.
Does Doc from Baby Driver still count as a Magnificent Bastard? He's got a Smug Snake entry on his character page.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsSpeaking of Smug Snake entries found on Magnificent Bastards I found this entry on All For One's Character page
- Smug Snake: His successes against the past users of One For All and his stockpile of offensive/defensive Quirks led him to believe he was so invincible that he didn't need to steal a healing ability. He only did so after Toshinori thrashed him and because of the way it works, the Quirk is useless in doing anything apart from bringing him back from the brink of death so he can continue to be a blind, maimed shadow of his former self because that's his "normal" being as far as the Quirk understands his biology. He also tends to refer himself as "boku".
Since Lightysnake EP All For One perhaps he can explain this
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffReading the argument the trope presents... just cut it. I don't see anything to disqualify him from it and MBs are allowed to be audacious.
I'll let Lighty weigh in on it if he thinks it's merited but reading that over a lot seems like it could well be a reader indulging in hindsight bias, I'm not so sure the work makes the point that he's "smug" in making those decisions and again, the self-referral stuff isn't a deal breaker.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 6th 2019 at 5:48:50 AM
Alright since we got that point cleared I've just removed the Smug Snake entry from All For One's character page.
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffYeah, I think a lot of tropers mistakingly believe that a villain whose cocky is automatically a Smug Snake.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 6th 2019 at 7:05:43 AM

It’s my first EP for Magnificent Bastard, so I will try my best
What's the Work?
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Legends: Soul's Winter
is a collection of stories in Mirage Studios publications of TMNT, set in an alternative universe of "Soul's Winter" trilogy, all of which is written by Michael Zulli (also include short one-shots "A Splinter in the Eye of God", "O-Deed", and "Failed Instant", also written by Zulli and set in the same universe), that offers a dark retelling of TMNT premise. Splinter here is a bit derange (although still as intelligent as human) mutant rat, who still cares for his "sons" and hates humans, while turtles themselves are semi-intelligent giant mutant Turtles, who look like this
◊ and don't have names in this universe (they just call themselves brothers and Splinter calls them his sons). Shredder here presented as more noble kind of warrior, who apparently rules the city and declare a war on mutants.
So, here is this universe take on the Shredder.
Who is He/What Has He Done
A Japanese Samurai lord and current leader of Oroku clan, Oroku Saki AKA Shredder is first presented ordering a magic potion
◊ from his servant, which he uses to have a mental fight with Splinter
◊, whom he would have defeated, if Splinter hasn't used magical Fetishes of Earth's elements
◊. As Splinter manages to drive off Shredder, he decided to attack him in physical realm and awake
◊ his Turtles to head to him. It was shown
◊ to be exactly what Shredder is wanted and as he gives a motivational speech
◊ to his Foot soldiers, Shredder sets an ambush for the Turtles and Splinter. Setting his trap in the forest, Shredder orders his ninjas to reveal themselves
◊ when Turtles and Splinter arrived there and attack them. After a rather short battle
◊, one of Foot soldiers manage to cut off the hand
◊ of one of the Turtles. As Splinter realizes that the luck is not on their side he urges Turtles to retreat deep in the forest, as Shredder orders his soldiers to cut off all routes to escape, except one, as Shredder felt great from his victory
◊ and wanted to fight with turtles other day.
A bird takes one of the Splinter's lost Fetishes on the field and goes to Shredder's house, as Splinter tries to summon a God of the Animals Animus
◊ to heal the wounded Turtle (the one, who lost his hand), who was dying. The bird explode part of Shredder's house and apparently dies (in the third issue it was revealed to be turned in to messenger of Animus), leading Shredder to realize that Splinter summoned Animus and head in direction of his house (while stopping the fight of one couple in the streets
◊). Arriving there Shredder easily defeats
◊ one of the Turtles, who attacked him and then healed
◊ the wounded Turtle. When asked about it he said that he did it because "Everything beautiful... Bleeds"
◊ and left.
How Does He Operate as a MB?
Oroku Saki AKA Shredder is a rather noble warrior, who never goes in any breakdown and never does attacks anyone without reason. He claims
◊ that he want to teach Splinter and his turtles a lesion and fight for the will of man
◊ and harmony (although full story behind his hatred of the Turtles and Splinter never explained, but it does shown to be that he is their sworn enemy for a long time). Tricking Splinter in to leading his Turtles in to a trap with rather ease, Shredder quickly forces them to retreat and could have killed them, but decided to let them go, as he loved the feeling of victory. In his second and last appearance, Shredder manage to quickly track down Splinter and Turtle's home (indicating that he knew its location for a long time) and easily restrain the Turtles, as he healed their brother.
Bastard? Too Much?
Shredder in this universe never does anything bad to anyone else, other than Splinter and the Turtles, but even then he spared them in their first time in the comic and healed their brother in second. Although he did lead a dozen of his warriors to be killed in his trap for the turtles and felt nothing about it, he is shown to not sacrifice them without reason and even have at least some care for his people, as he got angry that Splinter's actions possibly could have resulted to bad things happening to people
◊ and says that his hand is again forced
◊, implying that he doesn't desire to constantly attack the Turtles.
Final Verdict
I will say Yes.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Aug 5th 2019 at 8:33:59 PM