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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#11551: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:38:13 PM

[tup] Roy Batty.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#11552: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:42:21 PM

[up][up] You’re an actor? Have you played any Magnificent Bastards?

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 25th 2019 at 7:42:54 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#11553: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:50:56 PM

I'm just saying, from the works he was in he's a huge influence. I wish I could be an actor.

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#11554: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:10:37 PM

I actually swore when I saw that Roy Batty had been proposed; Blade Runner is one of my all-time favourite movies, Roy is one of the greatest characters in sci-fi and cinema in general, and I dearly wanted to propose him myself. He's an easy [tup], of course, and an eternal testament to the talent of Rutger Hauer, may he rest in peace.

On to a different sci-fi topic, I came up with at least four possible qualifiers (Carl Elias, Root, John Greer, and Samaritan) from Person of Interest, and since I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to do a proposal, I thought I'd open the door to anybody who knows the show and wants to give it a whirl.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11555: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:03:49 PM

Yeah to Roy. Kazuya, gut the chainhole from your second entry.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11557: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:34:24 PM

Two potholes touching... hold on, have you taken those to get help yet?

Edited by 43110 on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:36:11 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11558: Jul 25th 2019 at 7:23:27 PM

@ DeCarta Idk who watches that show but I'm sure someone will get to it. If you'd like to I also promise we'll be nice when receiving any EP you decide to do, even if folks don't think the character in question counts.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#11559: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:08:08 PM

A big [tup] to Roy. Surprised we missed him for so long

Things are really about to get Fun around here
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#11562: Jul 26th 2019 at 7:03:28 AM

Yea on Roy

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#11563: Jul 26th 2019 at 7:19:36 AM

You know what? I've got a special MB proposal today...from Special Victims Unit of all things... from the episode Authority, I give you Merritt Rook.

Who is Merritt Rook?

Played by Robin Williams himself, Rook is an audio engineer with a deep hatred of authority figures....years ago, Rook's beloved wife had a complication in childbirth and the doctor screwed up. Badly. Rook listened to the doctor's orders when he knew something was wrong and blamed the doctor for it...this gave Rook his rage towards authority in general, and led him to plot to get people to question. Rook proceeded to slowly ruin the doctor's life until he killed himself in a way that couldn't be traced to Rook.

Rook then proceeds to do an experiment: he calls up businesses, pretending to be a cop, to get people to commit criminal acts to make others realize they're doing it just because a voice on the phone tells them to. In one instance, he calls up a burger place and has the owner detain an employee, tie her up and search her clothes for a 'stolen wallet' as 'Detective Milgram.' They soon identify Rook who is charged with conspiracy to commit assault.

Rook? Represents himself and skillfully plays to the jury, using the chance to present his views to a larger audience. It's even implied Rook used the crime that got him detained because he knew they'd overzealously charge him and having studied the law and being able to play a crowd perfectly, Rook is acquitted, while preaching about resisting authority.

The detectives find evidence about Rook being responsible for the doctor's suicide, but when Benson, one of the mains, finds Rook, he claims to have a bomb and is so convincing Benson submits herself as a captive. Stabler, the other main detective, tracks Rook down who has taken Benson to a studio, where he has bombs set up...Benson is trapped in a room and hooked up to an electric torture machine. He wants Stabler to press the button to shock her and demands Stabler do it or rook will...and presses the button, letting Stabler hear her screams. Stabler tries to reason with Rook and refuses to hurt his partner.

Just as Rook wanted. Rook reveals...Benson was never in danger. Her screams were pre-recorded and he just wanted to see what Stabler would do to give him a lesson in resistance. There are no explosives, either. As Rook is apprehended, he uses a detonator on his leg to set off a minor explosion and runs, leaping into the river.

They presume he's drowned, but Rook's body is never recovered, leaving open the possibility he escaped.

How's he operate?

He's Robin Williams, Rook is charming, erudite, educated and charismatic, and utterly driven. He truly believes in everything he's doing. The nastiest he gets is the "get people to do bad things as a voice on the phone", but he uses even that as a chance to get his message out in a highly publicized trial, of all places. And after that? The entire episode has Rook making people dance to his tune, with the possibility, even probability he's completely escaped justice.

No question on this: Rook is a smooth operator and Robin Williams plays him fantastically.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

Yes. Rook humiliates people, harassed a man into suicide and does questionable things. I waffled a bit because of his first crime (having a woman tied up and searched is on the cusp), but Rook makes it clear he despises rape and sexual assault, and would never go that far....plus, this is SVU. Rape, sexual assault, sex abuse, sex slavery, human trafficking, etc. are a dime a dozen on this show. Rook never, ever goes anywhere near this far, and it's indicated that charging him as such was a serious overstep as Rook is able to acquit himself with his knowledge of the law and by playing to the jury. For SVU, Rook is nowhere near too vile.

In addition, Rook has a philosophy, as warped as it is, and is driven by the tragic memory of the death of his wife and child. Even by the end when he puts the detectives through absolute hell, Rook reveals he was never going to torture Benson and wanted Stabler to make a correct decision.

Conclusion?

I think we have a winner. Rook is bad, but in the morass of sex abusers and depraved monsters on SVU, he stands out by comparison, and has serious mitigating factors to him, in addition to being the best plotter on the show.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#11564: Jul 26th 2019 at 7:25:36 AM

[tup]Rook

Could anyone count in vanilla Law and Order do you think?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#11565: Jul 26th 2019 at 7:26:08 AM

Also, would anyone mind if I do a separate Candyman writeup for The Forbidden short story?

The story is mostly the same, except set in England, the Candyman is a white man with blond hair, whose origin is unknown, but he's charming, gentlemanly, and has the same MO as Todd with fewer murders....except he lures Helen in, tricks her and does win in the end, but has Helen embrace become part of his story and enter myth alongside him. He's just as easy a keep in a shorter format.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#11567: Jul 26th 2019 at 7:33:53 AM

thinklikeaderp

Sure. And you may do a separate writeup as you wish Lighty

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11568: Jul 26th 2019 at 7:56:12 AM

BTW, to see "the morass of sex abusers and depraved monsters on SVU", see here. We're nearly talking Criminal Minds levels of heinousness...which now makes me wonder if anyone from there could count. Replicator and Foyet are manipulative, but probably TOO much of a bastard.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#11569: Jul 26th 2019 at 8:04:58 AM

Yeah, I am not gonna see Foyet put up.

Even Frank, who has redeeming qualities, still carves people apart while they're alive and conscious for kicks. Usually criminals with redeeming qualities on CM are also too tragic or lack the other qualities (Vincent, for one)

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 26th 2019 at 8:05:59 AM

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#11571: Jul 26th 2019 at 9:04:36 AM

[tup] Roy Batty, [tup] Rook

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#11572: Jul 26th 2019 at 9:19:25 AM

[tup] Rook - is his Chess themed name intentional, you think?

Reminds me of Clyde Shelton as well.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11575: Jul 26th 2019 at 11:52:24 AM

Yeah to Rook and go for it on the second Candyman, I trust you if you say it's close enough we don't need a second EP.


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