During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
to Olrik
Still, I think a slasher qualifying for this trope is pretty impressive. It seems like most of them don't have the kind of intelligence and/or charisma required, or are just too damn vile to qualify. And since Candyman was created before Vernon or Jigsaw, I think he could be considered the first in a different sense.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 24th 2019 at 9:55:00 AM
It’s something you wanna be leery of because serial killers tend to target people in situations where they’re vulnerable and alone but it’s not a no 100% of the time but they’ve really got to have something to mitigate that point. I think you’re right Imperial, pretty sure the Candyman is our first chronologically.
Edit: Wait, if we wanna count a comedy-horror version (being fair, probably a lot more likely to land an MB killer) we've got the Theatre of Blood example brought to us by our boy Vincent Price.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:19:13 AM
Now, in honor of the late, great Rutger Hauer...
What's the work?
Blade runner is the seminal 80s Sci Fi film set in a futuristic world, featuring Harrison Ford as Deckard, a cop known as a Blade Runner...see, in years past, the Tyrell corporation created lifelike human robots known as Replicants to serve as everything from grunt labor to soldiers to prostitutes...and they have a lifespan of only a few years. Problem? The Replicants have large grown self aware and aren't all happy with this state of affairs. The Blade Runners track them down and, shall we say, 'retire' them. Deckard meets a lifelike Replicant, the most unbelievably human one ever, named Rachel, and is caught in a plot by a group of Replicants who aim to find their 'father' and demand more life...and their leader? Roy Batty.
Who is Roy Batty?
Roy Batty is a Replicant, one of the most skilled, dangerous Replicants alive, created to be a soldier. Batty fought in multiple wars, gaining incredible life experiences and was left with a hunger and a love for life, but his loyalty to humanity soured, and he desired to break free, to live as he would with a normal lifespan.
To this end, Batty recruits three other Replicants: Priss, his lover, a former prostitute model, Zhora, a former black ops killer, and Leon, a laborer/fighter and the muscle of the group. Batty proceeds to go rogue, escaping Blade Runners and soldiers alike, misdirecting them all through as he arrives in the heart of the Tyrell corporation. Seeking to gain access to his 'father,' Eldon Tyrell, Batty sends Priss to seduce and win over an engineer named JF Sebastian, allowing Batty a place to hide out in the meantime, while manipulating Sebastian, and also killing his way through those who have the information he needs, at one point torturing and leaving another man to freeze to death in subarctic temperatures for the information he holds.
Batty sends Leon to deal with Deckard, when Deckard manages to track down and 'retire' Zhora, who Batty had placed quite well in the slums to keep abreast of things. Leon is killed by Rachel, and she and Deckard team up, becoming lovers in the proceeding fallout. Batty manages to get to Tyrell and demands that his father give him more life...only to be informed that this is impossible. Roy is crushed and remarks that he has indeed done "terrible things....but nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let me into heaven over." He proceeds to murder Tyrell and Sebastian both, realizing his impending death. Priss is dispatched by Deckard who has hunted down Roy, leading to a battle between them...Roy dominates the fight, crushing Deckard down, but before Deckard falls off the roof to his death, Roy saves him suddenly.
His life dwindling away? Roy thinks of his life and decides to impart just a bit, just a tiny bit to Deckard so Deckard will remember it for him: "I've seen things you wouldn't believe. I've seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All these moments...will be lost. Like...tears...in the rain. Time...to die."
And with that? So passes Roy Batty, ensuring Deckard will never forget him, and eventually perhaps leading to the potential Replicant uprising as witnessed in the sequel.
So how's he operate?
Roy is brilliant, ruthless, cunning, charming and charismatic as all hell. For a soldier? Roy's got a ruthless plan, executes it flawlessly and only the fact his goal is, y'know, impossible really stops him. He manipulates Sebastian, throws off Blade Runners and the entire human governments to lay low, puts together a Replicant squad with his charisma and drive for life, and the only time he snaps is when he learns his death (which is a VERY short time away) is inevitable. He recovers very quickly and dies with utter dignity and grace, even saving his enemy so a part of him can live on in Deckard's own memories.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Roy is not a good man. He tortures people for information, he kills them, and while his wrathful murder of Tyrell is almost excusable, he kills Sebastian afterwards, rather unnecessarily, because he's pissed off...that said, Roy's humanity is really something. He's not malevolent or sadistic on his own: he was created as a slave for humanity, and all he wants is his freedom. He just wants a life, and not just for him, but for his comrades. During the fight with Deckard, Roy snaps his fingers at one point, and makes it clear he's avenging Leon, Zhora and Priss, who he genuinely, truly cares for. They're not just followers, they're his friends, and in Priss's case? More.
Roy is a complex, multifaceted villain, being almost a messianic archetype to the Replicants in general, while being a ruthless killer, but that ending? It is one of the best Alas, Poor Villain moments brought to film. You just can't hate the guy.
Conclusion?
A yes. an easy, easy yes. RIP, Rutger.
Sure to Roy Batty.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
to Roy. RIP Rutger
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 24th 2019 at 11:17:54 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Roy Batty
Also
- Brain Powerd:
- Winston Gaybridge is initially presented as a Reasonable Authority Figure before revealing himself as the Governor of the Reclaimers. Intending to control Orphan and awaken it, potentially causing the End of the World as We Know It in an attempt to make humans value nature, Gaybridge dislikes his own actions yet is willing to accept the guilt for causing the destruction of mankind. After the United States of America invades Orphan, Gaybridge shows his distaste towards American imperialism yet uses the Americans for his own purposes. Painting the crew of the Novice Noah as terrorists, Gaybridge fires nuclear weapons against the ship—uncaring about the thousands of refugees caught in the crossfire and inside the Novice Noah itself, and when the Novice Noah teleports the nukes elsewhere, Gaybridge orders multiple nuclear strikes to frame the Novice Noah for it, turning them into enemies of the world. Polite to both allies and enemies, Gaybridge's defeat was a product of his lack of understanding of Orphan's unexpected human-like nature.
- Baron Maximilian is a mysterious man who becomes Jonathan Glenn's Evil Mentor, giving him the Baronz, a special and powerful antibody that damages the mind of their pilot. Showing a clear fondness for Jonathan, the Baron ensures the best for him, joining the Reclaimers with the eventual intention of synchronizing Jonathan's mind with Orphan. Realizing a coup against Winston Gaybridge and taking control of the Reclaimers, the Baron supports Quincy Isamu after she synchronizes with Orphan,due to knowing that Jonathan supports her as well. Knowing about Jonathan's grudge against Yu Isamu, the Baron pilots the Baronz, intending to kill Yu for Jonathan's well being. Revealed as Anoha [Mc Cormick], formerly the captain of the Novice Noah and Jonathan's regretful negligent mother, Anoha is defeated, dying at the hands of her son. A mysterious, powerful and intimidating persona, Baron Maximillian is able to overcome the odds in order to bring happiness to her son,and while her apocalyptic plans failed due to the collective efforts of the Novice Noah, Anoha died fulfilling her true goal of reconciling with her son.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:42:41 AM
Watch me destroying my country
