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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11451: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:00:23 AM

Don't think so but if Georgie's master post for Comic!Olrik goes up he will be another split case.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11452: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:02:33 AM

I removed Zantafio for the time being then.

BTW, I think Lex is the only one with 4+ CM incarnations AND 4 or more MB ones, yet none cross over.

Edited by ACW on Jul 23rd 2019 at 1:03:31 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11453: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:03:53 AM

Why? IIRC Zantafio was a valid example of a crossover... I meant Olrik would not be one, since he counts in the cartoon as a CM and (possibly) an MB in the comic.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11454: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:08:33 AM

I asked if the Zantafio was the same, and you said, quote, "Don't think so" [lol]

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11455: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:12:55 AM

If he was the same as Ran Mori, who I said if I'm remembering correctly, was split in which version was a CM and an MB.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11456: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:16:16 AM

Oh, gotcha [lol]

When I asked the same, I meant if it was the same incarnation of Zantafio as a CM and MB . My bad [lol] I've re-added him to the list.

We're at 30 BTW, and I think there are probably a few more.

Edited by ACW on Jul 23rd 2019 at 1:18:38 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11458: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:34:44 AM

You could but that page isn't locked, feel free to just pop your edits in there, unless you'd like to bounce ideas around or anything.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#11459: Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:48:04 AM

I think Lighty effortposted Ranmaru Mori as more emphasis on the anime/compilation version, which is a CM.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11461: Jul 23rd 2019 at 11:49:18 AM

A slight rewrite (just to change the formatting and pothole to his page):

  • Daredevil: Guardian Devil, by Kevin Smith: Quentin Beck, aka Mysterio, is presented as a genius, theatrical puppet master seeking to cement himself in history as a "legitimate" supervillain after a career of being nothing more than a B-lister. Upon being diagnosed with cancer, Mysterio makes it his mission to drive the hero Daredevil to insanity, playing on the man's religious faith by using a combination of manipulation, disguises, and hallucinogenic drugs to make him believe a baby under his care is the Antichrist and needs to be killed. Convincing Daredevil's lover Karen Page she has AIDS, framing his best friend Foggy Nelson for murder, and hiring Bullseye to kidnap the baby and kill anyone in his path (leading to Page's death in Daredevil's arms), Mysterio locks the child in a chamber that will soon suffocate her if Daredevil doesn't go along with the villain's devised "final act" of his grand plan. In the end, upon realizing he hasn't broken Daredevil, Mysterio gives him the baby back and proceeds to blow his own brains out in a final act of defiance towards both the hero and his own cancer, refusing to be taken down by anyone but his own hand. Despite his otherwise goofy or ineffectual outings, Mysterio here is a brilliant strategist, excellent manipulator, and holds all the charm that a Large Ham skilled in film and theater would possess.

Also, additional potholes for Green Goblin and Hobgoblin:

  • Spider-Man: Roderick Kingsley was a ruthless businessman who built an empire out of the fashion industry with unscrupulous practices. Discovering the lair of the Green Goblin, Kingsley decided to build the identity of the Hobgoblin, remaining concealed the whole while. Creating a new criminal empire, he used criminal Lefty Donovan the Hobgoblin to test the effectiveness of the Goblin formula and then eliminated him when he'd served his purposes. Kingsley also brainwashed reporter Ned Leeds into thinking he was the Hobgoblin to use him as a cover, eventually getting Leeds killed while he skipped away free and clear. Returning to murder the fourth Hobgoblin, Jason Macendale, for bringing undue scrutiny upon him, he then manipulated the Green Goblin into attacking him so he could escape prison and then begins leasing the identities and costumes of minor supervillains to others in order to take a cut of the profits.. A criminal genius long before he donned the mask, Kingsley repeatedly shows why he is one of Spider Man's most intelligent enemies.

I've added them to the Drafts; do with them as you wish.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11462: Jul 23rd 2019 at 12:52:10 PM

Respective OPs: you cool with the above? I think we all know ACW is going to make a better pothole guy than I.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#11463: Jul 23rd 2019 at 1:01:31 PM

@ ACW @ 43110 Zantafio? He's the same in both his CM and MB entries.

EDIT : Didn't notice that he was re-added in the list. My bad.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:02:56 AM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#11464: Jul 23rd 2019 at 1:03:33 PM

BTW, should Hunt Down the Freeman be moved from video games to other media under fan works?

Speaking of the latter, I've noticed a few fanworks don't have what they're fanworks OF, and some (The Impossible Series; Kanto Origins (a playthrough) don't even have LINKS. If you'd like, I can reformat that whole section to make it standardized like the CM fanworks are (let me know whether you want it alphabetized by work, or by the work it's based off of).

As for Mysterio, I probably could do more potholes, but I just changed:

  • Daredevil: Under Kevin Smith's pen in the story arc Guardian Devil, Quentin Beck, aka Mysterio...
to

EDIT: I think you can also remove Dark Oak from the main AniManga page, since he's on the Sonic page.

EDIT 2: Arrowverse!Prometheus has his own page.

Edited by ACW on Jul 23rd 2019 at 6:28:09 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#11465: Jul 23rd 2019 at 3:38:58 PM

Nichody's writeup.

  • Pierce Nichody is the seemingly helpful butler of the Sprocket Household. At first, he seems to only be executing the wishes of Sorin Sprocket's parents, it later turns out he's a surgeon, and had a hidden agenda. Wanting revenge on Sorin and his fiancée Ellen, for the loss of his fiancée, Nichody kicks up a framing plot that involved the usage of false time travel, Pierce organized a near perfect operation, to get both Sorin and Ellen confessing to the crime of murdering Dumas Gloomsbury, Pierce's co-conspirator. Despite insulting the judge and attorneys when cornered as well as bribing them with the company's wealth, Pierce still has a distinct kinder side to him in that he realizes albeit too late that Selena would not have wanted him to take revenge and is a surprisingly helpful witness despite being the killer. After admitting his guilt, Pierce's pocketwatch begins to function once more, thus giving him a rather tragic arrest.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#11466: Jul 23rd 2019 at 3:41:31 PM

Someone in the CM thread brought up the idea of possible HS/MB crossovers.

I still believe it's easier to make an accidental Complete Monster than to make a Hate Sink into an accidental Magnificent Bastard.

Part of the idea of a Hate Sink is that they are personally despicable. It would take a spectacular failure on the part of the author [to make their character personally despicable] for a Hate Sink to be approved as a Magnificent Bastard.

Also, there is literally only one Designated Hero who has been approved by [the Monster] thread. The other unintentionals may not have been intended as monsters, but it would be way easier to have a Designated Hero approved as a Magnificent Bastard than it would be with a Hate Sink.

I'm curious to know what Tropers/{{43110}}, and anyone else in this thread, aside from Georgie, Polar and Kylo, think about the possibility of a Hate Sink being an MB. (I already know the latter 3 think it's easier to have an HSMB than I do).

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#11467: Jul 23rd 2019 at 3:44:16 PM

The only time I could really think of is whether or not the author does a poor job at conveying that the character was to be hated and instead ironically makes them charming, and little any especially petty moments.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#11468: Jul 23rd 2019 at 3:50:17 PM

I just don't have the time, energy or desire to deal with Hate Sinks. I just wanna focus on CM's and MB's.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#11469: Jul 23rd 2019 at 3:53:18 PM

Do we need more potholes? Do we honestly need more potholes if the entries speak for themselves? Can we, like, can that practice right now?

Anyways, these are a bit overdue:

  • Watchmen: Adrian Veidt, alias Ozymandias, is a former member of the Minutemen, the most brilliant man alive and the architect of every wrong in the plot for a just cause. A self-made millionaire who built his entire fortune from the ground up after giving away his vast inheritance, Veidt uses his vast resources as a cover for an elaborate plot to force peace upon the world in the brink of nuclear war, meticulously silencing every loose end in the way. Veidt ruthlessly discredits the omnipotent Dr. Manhattan and drives him off Earth after framing him for giving people cancer, and assassinates those who find out too much about his plan, from Moloch to the Comedian, all while effortlessly playing the part of a Villain with Good Publicity. Veidt, through research into genetic development and teleportation, creates a monstrous alien creature he drops on New York, killing millions, all to frame it as the attack of alien invaders and thus force the world's leaders to cooperate again an imaginary bigger threat before they can destroy each other. Ultimately, Veidt's plan is a success, executing his master stroke thirty-five minutes before it can ever be intercepted, proclaiming he'll thrust the world upward into a utopia of his own design. Calculated, unfettered, and ruthless while still remaining human enough to feel remorse over the horrors he's committed, Ozymandias is one of the most intelligent and morally-complex characters to have come out of the Dark Age.

  • Kingdom Hearts: Axel, the Nobody of Lea and number VII of Organization XIII, is a quick-witted and smooth-spoken "fixer" for the Organization responsible for silencing those who try to betray Xemnas. Axel acts as a mole for Larxene and Marluxia's scheme, killing loose ends like Vexen and Zexion with an impenetrable smile on his face, while manipulating Sora's group, Namine, and the Riku Replica, eventually dismantling Marluxia's scheme in preparation for his and Saïx's own attempt to seize power from Xemnas. Axel shows humanity and depth unique for a Nobody far earlier than most of his comrades, bonding fiercely with Xion and Roxas, and once his love for them overrides his loyalty to the Organization, Axel goes turncoat. When his attempt to take Roxas from Sora back fails, Axel decides to help him instead, sacrificing his own life to save Sora and paving the way for Lea to ally with the heroes against Xehanort's overlapping scheme. Always ready with a quip and a smile for any occasion, Axel leaves little room for wonder as to how the fandom memorized his name so universally.

  • The Maltese Falcon: Kasper Gutman is an amiable, corpulent crime lord who has been pursuing the titular black bird for seventeen years without ever stopping. Ruthless to the point of murder but sincerely polite, Gutman opts for negotiation and bribery as opposed to the ineffective, brutish violence of his minions, stating "there are other methods of persuasion asides from killing and threatening to kill, patiently overwhelming the protagonist Sam Spade, drugging him, and remaining unflappably calm even as Spade gains the advantage. Gutman is driven to the point where he decides to use his own hitman Wilmer as a fall guy for the murders so he can continue the search for the bird, and when he discovers the Maltese Falcon he receives is a fake, Gutman is shaken for all but a minute before he cheerfully laughs it off and decides to continue onto Istanbul, remaining no less persevering as he has for the previous seventeen years and even offering Spade the chance to come with him on the hunt.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#11471: Jul 23rd 2019 at 4:05:28 PM

@Sky Cat

I said on the CM thread I wanted to Move on from this.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#11472: Jul 23rd 2019 at 4:07:21 PM

Sorry, I don’t mean to be rude, but I want to hear what others have to say.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#11473: Jul 23rd 2019 at 4:20:20 PM

Axel looking good but he's actually number VIII.

Saix is VII.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#11474: Jul 23rd 2019 at 4:27:08 PM

Aye, knew that, just typo'd. Roman numerals slip away from me a bit, sometimes.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#11475: Jul 23rd 2019 at 4:40:58 PM

Figured as much. I was mainly concerned about people unfamiliar with KH.


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