During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Winston.
Here's my effortpost of Pierce Nichody.
What's the work?
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Spirit of Justice is the sixth main series game of the Phoenix Wright game series. The story takes place mostly in the Japanese-inspired Kingdom of Khura'in though there have been some murder trials in Japanifornia. Today's candidate is from the DLC case of this game.
Who is Pierce Nichody? And what does he do?
Pierce is the butler of Sprocket Aviation and a pretty damn brilliant man. The butler occupation is really a front for his real occupation: namely the Sprocket Family surgeon and the fiancé to the Sprocket family's oldest heir. He is also the case's antagonist. Originally, he had proposed to Selena Sprocket the elder sister of the current heir Sorin Sprocket. After Sorin crashed the family car, the siblings received massive injuries. Pierce tried to operate on his fianceè Selena but she denied treatment asking that he operated on Sorin instead. And thus due to a rather senseless sacrifice, Pierce lost his fianceè, Sorin lost his elder sister, and the Sprocket family, their previous heir. It wasn't a pleasant day for anyone involved. And thus Pierce was a broken man who decided the only way to make things right in the world was to exact revenge on Sorin. And thus, the person who became the scapegoat for the car accident by the Sprockets was Dumas Gloomsbury who was then a simple servant. In exchange for his silence and help with his plan to murder Sorin's fianceè, one Ellen Wyatt, also a servant of the household, he was promoted to head servant thanks to Pierce. As such, Pierce's plan to get revenge at first went swimmingly until Sorin risked his life on the Flying Chapel to rescue his fianceè from Gloomsbury, and he got stabbed with a candlelabra in the chest. Sorin knocked Gloomsbury unconscious with the blunt symbol of the young couple's love, the Time Keeper, but Ellen didn't notice him. So Pierce, during the second reception clobbered Gloomsbury with the Time Keeper thus finishing him off, after realizing he was still alive when they hid him in a bull lantern. Pierce then got an idea to frame Ellen for the crime in an elaborate framing scheme that started with Pierce asking that the reception be performed twice to give the illusion of Time Travel and thus sweep Ellen's crime under the rug, byHe then wrote a note from Ellen for Larry Butz to swap the Pegacow lantern with the Pegabull lantern containing the body. Ellen knocked it over and it revealed the body. In a daze, thinking she could travel back in time one more time. But Pierce brought her in-laws to see the scene and she was forced to flee with Larry Butz. Speaking of Larry, when he asked Pierce about the "pterodactyl" he saw (actually a map of the mooring dock), Pierce silenced him. Throughout the trial, Pierce tries to misdirect the trial and investigation but he rarely loses that affable charm he has. I will discuss that more.
Is Pierce able to think on his feet? Is he charming?
Absolutely. He's got several plans in motion for each spanner that tries to get in his way. The fact he set up easily one of the most clever framing schemes quite possibly out of any single case villain with the only couple coming close being Roger Retinz (who doesn't count due to sleazy and crookedness) and Damon Gant (who's already up) should prove it. He even uses his influence to silence the prosecutor's office forcing Edgeworth as Chief Prosecutor, to step in and prosecute. He's able to create the illusion of time travel and even messes with Sorin's memory book (the book containing his inventions and memories due to a memory disorder he has) to make him think he was responsible so Phoenix will accuse him. But he always seems to be smiling and is very polite as well as rarely losing that smile, this only happening during his Villainous Breakdown as a surgeon.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Take your pick. If trying to kill Sorin's bride doesn't make him enough of one, how about trying to frame the couple for a murder he committed. And yet Pierce admits when he's wrong and he doesn't do much more than insult Phoenix, The Judge, and Edgeworth and attempt to bribe Edgeworth and the Judge. He's kinda condescending but not smug.
The Competition?
Pierce outplays pretty much every other criminal in the game that isn't a Smug Snake and is easily one of the most clever adversaries Phoenix has faced.
Verdict?
Leaning yes.
How bad is his Villainous Breakdown? Also you said he outplays every villain who is not a Smug Snake. He doesn't get outdone by a Smug Snake, does he?
What I meant is out of the case villains he's easily the most clever and even the Big Bad is childish and throws her weight around. Yeah she's more heinous but this isn't about the most heinous villain. It's more like... Calisto Yew and Quercus. Quercus is far more heinous but he comes off as a bigger prick than Yew. Yet Yew comes off as more clever.
And his Villainous Breakdown is basically comparing the court to malignant tumors and sweating. Nothing more. He begins to lose his cool but quickly recovers.
to Mysterio. Sorry papyru, but he’s way too petty. Petty to the max.
Movie was f-ing awesome, but Beck messed me up with what he did in that first stinger. Second stinger also flipped the script, but not as insanely.
Could Talos count come to think of it?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:36:21 AM
MCU Talos is more of a Guile Hero than a Magnificent Bastard. His hands are bloody but he means no harm. He's on the same boat as Fury. Plus, you know, he got fooled by Mysterio and the plot of Far From Home would have been avoided had he been more like Fury.
In regards to Mysterio, I'll abstain from the vote. The only thing I'll comment on is that Mysterio never came off to me as a Smug Snake. He's arrogant but he often catches a flaw within his illusions and immediately knows what will happen if they are not taken care off. He also has contingency plans in the event that his original plans failed and those went off without a hitch, and apparently on improvisation. Heck, one might say that Mysterio would prefer to be "dead" so he can be a martyr hero the public adores (as well as hate Spider-Man) without actually having to dealing with real threats.
That said, I have a lot to say about him when he's up for Hate Sink.
Edited by Shadao on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:59:41 AM
Pierce
@43110: Baron Zemo is now a thing. Could we crosswick for his three entries (616 marvel, earths mightest heroes and Civil war)
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I got this one. I'll do it when I request the pothole for the CM versions of Zemo.
BTW, a request: Whoever does the YMMV's, PLEASE make sure to update the characters. I was going through the video game MB's, and noticed Doc Ock, Arkham!Ra's, Felicia, and Dr. Doom's entries weren't on the character pages. I took care of that, but in the future...
Sure to Pierce.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)A'ight, I took care of Zemo (I also requested potholing Masters of Evil for the animated one, and potholing his father's name to Nazi Nobleman for the comic one).
@Austin That's fair.
@Shadao Yeah that makes sense (pertaining to Talos).
@Lightysnake I'm not sure if I thought of doing him before or after, but you doing Lilith here probably inspired me to do (Patrick) Lloyd here (each one a cut CM, each one now approved here). Thank you.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 23rd 2019 at 8:14:18 AM
So for fun, I've created CM And MB Crossovers and added it to both the CM sandboxes and the MB sandboxes. I've already added Hans, Killian, Darkseid; Loki, Baron Heinrich Zemo.
Cool, I saw someone suggested Ran Mori on the other thread but IIRC he's from a few different versions of the same story and I don't recall if we included the fact that one version has a genuine loved one as something to add to his charm/sympathy, in which case, he'd be a Karza situation in which he's either one or the other.

@futuremoviewriter: Just read your suggestion about changing Arnold's name to Arnold Shortman in the Lasombra writeup. Going with a "no" because I feel that it isn't really necessary.