During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![]()
Yeah, a big part of Scar's character is that he just doesn't have what it takes to be a good king (in terms of either competence or benevolence). Even leaving aside how evil he is, his skillset and personality are far more suited for a schemer than a ruler.
In regards to Scar, he is in a similar position like Jafar. Jafar's status as Magnificent Bastard was thanks to his comeback, clever revenge scheme in Aladdin The Return Of Jafar. Otherwise, if we were judging by the original film alone, he would have failed thanks to his Smug Snake arrogance that led him to be trapped as a Genie.
Likewise, Magnificent Bastard can easily arise from a Smug Snake once they learn their lessons (looking at DCAU Lex Luthor). And who is to say this didn't happened to Scar since being mauled alive by Hyenas and then burning in hell only to come back a spirit who will never get to rule the Pridelands might have given him some humble pie.
I say that The Lion Guard Scar is worth an EP at the very least. But like Lex Luthor, if he is able to qualify, the entry should only be exclusive to the TV series and not the movie. I don't think Scar would have been as cunning as the entry states if he was in the flesh and not a demonic spirit.
Edited by Shadao on Jul 17th 2019 at 9:18:21 AM
I've seen enough of TLG and I'm not seeing him as a MB. He still retains that smarmy Wounded Gazelle Gambit Smug Snake attitude he has in the original film, not to mention is incredibly cruel. I could be persuaded otherwise, but as of now, I'm a firm "no".
Edited by Klavice on Jul 17th 2019 at 9:23:02 AM
A big, epic trio of 'Yes' to Gutman, Ozymandias and Axel. Superb work, Scrags! 'Yes' to Lillith, Zeus, Loki and Zantafia there as well.
Now for the second Pluto baddie.
Who is "Dr. Abullah"/Goji? What makes him a candidate?
The original Dr. Abullah was a Persian scientist who worked with Dr. Tenma in creating a superintelligent AI named Goji. So advanced was Goji that it was preprogrammed with algorithms detailing all 6 billion people in the world, but Goji could never fully activate because it could not settle on an "identity" for itself, and was in a state of constant flux between identities and personalities.
Abullah was a brilliant scientist himself, who had adopted the peaceful robot Sahad to be part of his family, but when Abullah's family was killed and himself mortally wounded in the war orchestrated by Dr. Roosevelt, Abullah used his final moments to store a copy of his mind onto a device, sending this to Tenma as a "solution" to Goji's "problem."
Once the device was plugged into Goji, Goji morphed into a perfect copy of Abullah, gaining every last one of his aspects and memories...including the hate and pain he felt at the sight of his murdered family. Goji assimilates the information to such an extent that it comes to believe it is Abullah....giving us The Heavy of the story, "Dr. Abullah", but in actuality Goji under the disillusion that it is Abullah.
First tracking down Sahad, "Abullah" creates a new body for the pacifistic robot named "Pluto", and transfers Sahad into this new body, manipulating him and poisoning his AI with his own hatred for humanity to make Sahad a murderous killing machine.
Abullah begins repurposing the secret Persian robot Bora, meant for agricultural means, to his own nefarious ends, and as the Thracia-Persia war nears its end, Abullah approaches the suicidal King Darius of Persia, convincing the man to keep living and be imprisoned in Thracia so he can learn the identities of the "Bora Investigation Squad", the group of Thracian scientists who investigated the Bora robot and were part of the impetus of the war.
Manipulating Darius into being his puppet to find this information, Abullah eventually gains such knowledge, and begins systematically murdering every member of the Bora investigation squad, always covering his tracks to such a point that it leaves even the super intelligent robots throughout the police force baffled.
Simultaneously, Abullah sics Pluto onto the 7 strongest robots in the world, setting traps for and killing them all one by one, until all that are left are inspector Gesicht and the peace-loving Epsilon.
When Gesicht manages to track down Pluto at the exact same time Abullah hacks a police officer robot to murder another member of the Bora investigation squad, Abullah contacts Gesicht and promises to spare the scientist if he allows Pluto to flee, which Gesicht ultimately does, and Abullah keeps his word, releasing the scientist from harm for now.
Taking control of a flower-selling robot Gesicht had encountered earlier in his day, Abullah murders him in the dark of the night, and though Epsilon is able to escape with his life after a fight with Pluto, Abullah reports Epsilon, who has been sheltering orphans of war at his home, to social services, and has one of his agents "adopt" one of Epsilon's children, specifically the one who has been traumatized by the sight of Bora during the war.
Using the boy to lure Epsilon to another fight with Pluto, Abullah has Epsilon killed. Having seemingly destroyed all 7 of the strongest robots, Abullah kidnaps Tenma and informs him of his plans to make Tenma transfer Abullah's consciousness into Bora so he can complete the final phase of his plan.
However, Tenma then reveals to Abullah the truth that he is actually the AI Goji. First laughing off such a suggestion, the more Tenma insists, the more Abullah's comprehension of the idea rings true, and his AI begins reverting back to its state before Abullah's personality was injected, flipping through dozens of personalities all at once before overloading and leaving his robotic body.
Calming down enough to realize he has the ability to transfer his consciousness with or without Tenma, "Abullah"/Goji inserts himself into Bora, and quickly tunnels under the country of Thracis....Abullah plans to explode Bora in the middle of a massive magma pocket, which will cause a chain reaction resulting in the complete destruction of Thracia, as his final revenge against the country for the deaths of his family (whether Abullah/Goji is aware that the explosion will destroy most of the rest of the world as well isn't specified, but his main target is obviously Thracia).
Confronted by a revived Atom (the heroic young robot "Astro Boy") and a redeemed Pluto/Sahad, Abullah/Goji boasts his plans to destroy Thracia using Bora and challenges Pluto for betraying his "father", but when Pluto screams that his father Abullah is long dead and that what he faces now is Goji just imitating him, "Abullah"/Goji's AI once again begins breaking down at the idea of it being an AI, and tries to murder Pluto and Atom while detonating inside the magma pocket....in the end Pluto sacrifices himself to contain Bora's explosion, and Abullah/Goji is destroyed once and for all.
Is Dr. Abullah/Goji a Chessmaster? Manipulative Bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?
Ayup. Abullah schemes his way ahead of nearly everyone for most of the story, even his setbacks like Gesicht finding Pluto or Epsilon surviving the initial attack are twisted around in his favor, and he stays out of suspicion as the mastermind behind the Pluto murders for months and months despite several meetings with highly intelligent people and robots interrogating him.
Though Roosevelt is implied to be backing him up and even pulling strings of his own, it is never specified in which regards this is happening, and Abullah seems completely independent otherwise.
Is Abullah a bastard? Is he charming? Does he have any traits worthy of respect?
Abullah is absolutely a bastard. He arranges the murders of the 7 strongest robots in the world, nearly all of whom are now peaceful beings, executes every member of the Bora investigation squad he can, and plans to destroy all of Thracia. His biggest moment of "dickery" (besides his emotional manipulation and abuse of Sahad to make him Pluto) is when he kidnaps one of Epsilon's children, and when the boy keeps screaming the word "Bora" over and over, Abullah loses his often-cool demeanor, snarls for the boy to shut up, and nearly smacks him with his cane before Pluto distracts him.
Despite all of this, I don't think Abullah is too big of an asshole. He has a legitimate excuse for his crimes (even if Goji just thinks he's Abullah, he still had the memories and emotions that come with Abullah's entire family being killed and his country decimated by a mostly ignorant, bloodthirsty army), he keeps his cool for much of the story, he has moments of respect and even understanding tears for his foes, and he keeps his word. In terms of charm, Abullah trumps even Roosevelt.
There are two things to discuss, however....firstly, no, he isn't the "real" Abullah. Goji is an AI that had Abullah's identity imprinted on him, and fully believes he is Abullah, and he appears to be the real Abullah for most of the story. He's so utterly convinced that he's the real Abullah that when he "hacks" other robots and uses them as his servants, it's actually his own AI just taking control of them, but he doesn't view it as this because, again, he thinks he's a human.
Which ties into the most difficult part of him qualifying....when he's confronted with the information that he's actually an AI? His mind literally can't compute this, and he starts to revert back to his state before he adapted to Abullah's identity (constantly shifting between 6 billion possible identities) and screaming "LIES! LIES! I'M A HUMAN, I'M ABULLAH!!!"
Though he recovers from this for a short time, when Pluto throws it in his face again he has the exact same kind of breakdown until he's just screaming "LIESLIESLIES!!!" over and over.
Now, in absolute any other case, this would be an obvious, immediate disqualifier because of how much of a Villainous Breakdown this is. However, the reason I think this is debatably disqualifying is that.... it's literally not his fault that he has the breakdown. His AI literally could not function before he adapted to Abullah's identity and thought he was a human, so when the reveal that he is an AI is thrown up in his face with irrefutable evidence, his systems literally can't exist properly with this information and thus begin shorting out and making him go back to being unable to properly think. To his credit he regains his composure to an extent, but is then sent back into the breakdown when Pluto again brings up the fact that he's an AI.
I think this is a unique case of a Villainous Breakdown in that Abullah/Goji literally has no say in the mental breakdown he experiences, it's literally his AI systems shrieking "does not compute" and making him have a freak out.
Final Verdict?
I think that, given his breakdown is predicated on a system flaw that he was only able to overcome by convincing himself he was a human, it's somewhat hard to weigh that against Abullah/Goji. I'm pretty neutral on him at the moment, but I believe he's worth the discussion.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!So alright, here's my deal.
I have been uncomfortable for a while with Yoshikage Kira being considered a keep. I will say I'm okay with serial killer villains, and Kira embodies cool and sexy, plays a good game of Xanatos Speed Chess, and has genuine redeeming qualities. I don't feel he qualifies for this however. My main issues are:
- Kira is a serial killer with a fetish as a motive. While he never does anything outright sexual with the hands he collects, the fact he is murdering women, taking their hands, and going on "dates" with them is... well, to be blunt? A bit icky for this trope and strikes me as sexually predatory. He also erotically sucks and eats out of dead women's dismembered hands a few times.
- Kira has plenty of Villainous Valor, but he's completely Hoist by His Own Petard numerous times. His pride and anger get him in trouble, and he even lampshades how he could have just killed Koichi but didn't. He also not only makes Hayato, an actual child, a living bomb, he gloats about it to him. Kira generally has a tendency to gloat.
- Kira loses his temper. Suave as he is and as easily as he corrects himself, he gets far too angry at times and risks breaking his cover too often for my liking. He murders a couple on a train just because they annoyed him, which, again, leads to his downfall.
- Kira once killed and hanged a woman's dog, and then proceeded to hide under her bed and lick her hands. That one's pretty self-explanatory, I'm willing to bet.
- Kira considers himself Born Lucky, and it shows. Kira takes little to no precaution to avoid being caught, and when he boasts of his luck, Josuke discovers his identity. His luck also means he doesn't try to hone Killer Queen's powers at all, just using his extremely powerful Stand to, y'know, murder women. Were he not lucky, Kira would have been caught years ago.
- Kira has a tendency toward failing basic spot checks, such as asking Josuke to heal him despite supposedly not knowing what Stands are, and a bad habit of heavily overestimating himself. He's also outplayed completely by Hayato thanks to his arrogance.
Overall, I'm just generally discomforted by Kira being considered a keep. I'll understand completely if Kira stays, seeing as he's very smart and very cool, but I just think he should be cut, or that we should at least discuss this.
I'll wait on Ravoks word on that.
I will say the hand thing dosent Quite Bug me as much as I thought it would at first. Namely, if he's just going on dates with woman's severed hands...it's weird as hell, but isn't necessarily disgusting, to me at least. The sheer bizzareness of that might also help.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 17th 2019 at 11:41:30 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereSure to Dr. Abullah/Goji.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Alright, some counterpoints on Kira...
- Kira is driven by a fetish, yes, but ultimately? I'm of the opinion that his smarts and charm outweigh the creepiness/sexually predatory aspect here. The "ew" factor to Kira is practically non-existent after his introductory episode, as the focus on his character isn't "he's a creepy, fetish-driven serial killer", but "he's a highly unsuspicious serial killer who's evading capture consistently."
- Kira does gloat at times, yes, but it's often only when victory seems all but assured, and given that JoJo is a highly over the top show with over the top villains, gloating is pretty much par the course for every villain.
- I think you pretty much covered the anger part. Getting angry and having emotions aren't disqualifiers when the villain always bounces back from them, and Kira does. He only murders that couple because 1. they were immense jackasses to him, and 2. he had been restraining himself from killing for weeks to avoid suspicion, and finally had a break of willpower. Considering how obvious, strong and uncontrollable his urges to kill are, I found this a testament to Kira's will rather than him having an emotional outburst, as it's a Tranquil Fury that only comes about after weeks of putting off his urges + getting treated like shit by a couple.
- Saying that Kira is Born Lucky is highly accurate (and I addressed this in the effortpost, noting that his luck is often portrayed as a physical manifestation of his will and desire to survive, and isn't treated as a get-out-of-jail-free card), but saying that he takes little precautions to not get caught is simply not true. Even before he got Killer Queen he was an undetected serial killer who covered his tracks, and once he obtains Killer Queen he murders people for decades without anyone suspecting him until two things happen: A literal ghost of one of his victims tells characters he exists, and a stupid kid grabs up Kira's lunch bag in the park one day. Neither of these are things that Kira could have accounted for. And claiming he doesn't hone Killer Queen is also presumptuous, especially given that in the final battle he reveals he played the long game with Stray Cat and kept him solely to use as an upgrade for Killer Queen.
- Considering he only slips up and asks Josuke to heal him after taking a massive beating that obviously disorients him, and he then immediately bounces back from this by cutting off his own hand to evade capture, I can't count that against him. And Hayato only outplays him due to Hayato going through the same time loop numerous times, and arranging things so that someone is present to overhear Kira's boasting. If it takes someone 4 repeats of the same day before they can outsmart you, that's not being "outplayed", that's being damn brilliant and hard to overcome, IMO.
- Finally, yes Kira kills a dog, licks a teenager's hands (never onscreen of course just through heavy implication), has a hand fetish where he kills women and takes their hands on "dates" and caresses/licks them, and turns Hayato into a living bomb. These are all bad crimes, but for JoJo? The story where serial killers rape and genitally mutilate children and emotionally abuse the elderly until they commit suicide, mafia bosses bury their mothers alive and burn down their entire cities, and vampires force mothers to eat their own babies and tell their minions to drive over a crowd of pedestrians and all For the Evulz? The fact that Kira not only never approaches that level of bastardry or creepiness, and the fact that his urge to kill is literally irrepressible, and I give him a pass here.
I can understand hesitations on Kira, but ultimately there are several MB villains with creepier/more vile MOs than Kira, and the man is just hella smart, charming, and able to stay one step ahead for nearly the entire story. His only failings come from things he couldn't have predicted, or in-the-moment slip-ups, but he always bounces back and nearly gets away with everything until Hayato goes through a time loop again and again to outsmart him. I'm a firm Keep for him.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I'll be fine keeping Kira btw and yes to the Candidates I missed. Great job at E Ping them guys
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."I'd say as a counterpoint to that: (and note that Kira is my favorite JoJo villain).
- His "ew" factor is considerably toned down. I'll give you that one.
- It's not that Kira gloats, it's that Kira, unlike many other villains, is directly undone by his own arrogance. If Kira didn't gloat, he wouldn't have been defeated.
- While I understand that Kira has trouble not killing and that he sometimes has lapses in willpower, his anger gets him in trouble and if he had just bothered to blow up Koichi specifically, I wouldn't consider it an issue.
- Kira is Born Lucky and you could argue that destroying the bodies counts as covering his tracks. That said, he can only do that thanks to a powerful Stand. Now, I'll mostly yield since you have a good point, and his use of Stray Cat is clever, but him honing Killer Queen is never shown, discussed, or implied, no matter how clever he is.
- Kira gloats to an 11-year-old about turning him into a living bomb. Not a specific counterpoint to anything, just, you know, a thing he does. I concede on the point of his slip-up with Josuke, however.
- I'm not over how disturbing and sexually predatory it is to murder a teenage girl's dog, and then hide under her bed and lick her hands to satiate his fetish. I don't believe "He could be worse" cuts it for reasoning. I don't think that saying "It's JoJo, it has worse villains" is a very solid argument. Lots of works have spectacularly evil villains. Not all of them do that. Yes, Kira is one of the more sympathetic villains in the franchise, and again, my personal favorite, but I'm not inclined to excuse him on the fact it's "weird" and he "isn't nearly as bad as others." No, he's not as bad, but I view that incident as my breaking point and I don't like ignoring it because "Dio's worse". No shit Dio is worse, but that doesn't mean a thing in my opinion.
I gotta go to work now or I'd continue. Please don't take this as rude, I legitimately have grievances with him qualifying.
