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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#11176: Jul 17th 2019 at 9:20:43 AM

[up] Which is why I don't consider this Mysterio worthy of discussion, based on his Monster effortpost.

However, that's just, like, my opinion, Man.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 17th 2019 at 12:22:11 PM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#11177: Jul 17th 2019 at 9:42:54 AM

Yeah to Artemisia played by Eva Green please be nice to her,

HECK YEAH OZZY OSBOURNE VEIDT seriously, I would be fine if we just Grandfather'd him. He's such a clear keep and I think his hesitation makes him better. In short, I upvoted him thirty-five minutes ago.

YEAH TO REMEMBRY BOI AXEL easily one of the more effective and better written baddies in KH. Now can we please remove KHII's Badass Decay entry on him? It makes no sense when you think about it for 2 seconds.

Also Dusks are hecking annoying. You think fighting dozens at once won't be a pain?

Xigbar may count in the future. Saix/Isa I'm keeping an eye on in case the DLC qualifies him. Then there's Maleficent and The Master of Masters... Yeah, we got a lot of schemers in KH. Like, trailers make me suspect even Luxord may count, but me and Scraggle will handle these when the time comes.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#11178: Jul 17th 2019 at 9:43:34 AM

I too would like to throw in that I would have upvoted Mysterio, and I do think he counts as a Complete Monster.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11179: Jul 17th 2019 at 9:51:00 AM

I'll hear Mysterio if people want but I can tell you right now how I'm going to vote.

@ ANew, You can spoiler tag it as you see fit as long as the text itself stays the same.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#11181: Jul 17th 2019 at 9:59:29 AM

Not sure I myself would care to EP Mysterio, but if someone else does, I'd like to be let known so I could give my full 2 cents.

@Polar: Axel really only suffered Villain Decay (not Badass Decay) in KH 2 post-prologue, as he ceased to be as efficient at accomplishing anything like he was before. Otherwise, I'd agree he didn't get hit with Badass Decay, especially once 358/2 Days came along to better explain why he was so needy for Roxas.

Now if we were talking about Axel going from Axel back to Lea, then that is indisputable Badass Decay. Dude got his own Keyblade and accomplished jack shit with it in KH 3.

Edited by ANewMan on Jul 17th 2019 at 10:00:54 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11182: Jul 17th 2019 at 10:03:16 AM

@ Nightmare, Not anymore it doesn't.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#11183: Jul 17th 2019 at 11:56:36 AM

A big fat yes to both Axel and Ozy. I'll withhold saying anything about Mysterio until he's properly EP'd, if ever.

Edited by DocSharp on Jul 17th 2019 at 11:57:01 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#11184: Jul 17th 2019 at 12:20:39 PM

alrighty, been sitting on this one, thanks to Scrags for the motivation.

What's the work?

The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina is a Netflix series and an adaptation of the Archie Comic spinoff, featuring Greendale's star witch Sabrina Spellman, returned to her aunts Zelda and Hilda....Sabrina is also the heiress of the former High Priest of the Church of Night, Edward Spellman, his daughter with a mortal woman....the witches there follow their own religion around the Dark Lord....unfortunately, dark powers are swirling about, including Satan himself...and his emissary is our candidate today. Madam Satan...Lilith.

Who is Lilith?

The first ever Witch. When Satan fell from the heavens, Lilith found him and tended his wounds, eventually falling to hell and becoming a demon herself. Lilith comes up to guide Sabrina down the path of darkness, murdering and replacing her teacher Ms. Wardell...steadily manipulating Sabrina into embracing black magic and the devil's book. Throughout season 1? Lilith helps to get Sabrina into new rites and rituals that are inherently corrupting, assisting Sabrina with an exorcism of a friend's relative who is possessed by the demon Apophis...once the exorcism is done, Lilith murders the man to make Sabrina think she's responsible.

Through the rest of season one....Lilith even helps Sabrina fight off a vengeful dream demon, tricking her more anad more until the finale when a group of vengeful, murdered witches are unleashed due to her machinations. Lilith tricks Sabrina into banishing them by signing the book of the devil, consigning her soul to hell, while gloating about her own desire to reign as Satan's Queen...except in season 2? Things begin changing.

Lilith meets Ms. Wardell's fiancee and the guy is very kind, nice and polite...to her surprise, she begins falling for him legitimately as he doesn't treat her like a tool, and begins connecting with him on an emotional level. Satan, furious at her presumption, murders him and makes Lilith eat the corpse as a dinner, breaking her heart. Resolving to get revenge, she begins using her manipulations for good, eventually revealing herself to Sabrina as Satan plans to marry her...Lilith helps the heroes head down to hell to face Satan and tricks even the Dark Lord with Sabrina, ending as Satan is sealed away in the body of Sabrina's boyfriend Nick...and Lilith? Takes the crown of hell herself, utterly triumphant, while promising to keep Nick safe.

How does she operate? How's the competition?

She's ruthless, driven and manipulative, Sabrina and everyone dancing to her tune all throughout. Lilith spends season1 dominating everyone with nobody suspecting a thing and it's not even close. The only times she's thrown off her guard is when the demon Batibat attacks Sabrina, forcing Lilith to put herself at risk to save her...which she does, winning over Sabrina's trust even more. By the series end, she's even outplayed Satan for screwing with her. Pass.

Is she a bastard? Too much?

She's a murderous demon who kills her own familiar for angering her, murders a woman to steal her life, eats a pizza delivery guy and is responsible for a lot of death and destruction...that said? In season 2 she becomes a much deeper character. When she meets Wardell's fiancee, she falls in love with him and plans to abandon all her dark dealings to have a normal life with him, being heartbroken when he dies. She honors her deals to Sabrina and the others and restores Wardell to life as a token of good will, while taking over hell and letting Sabrina and the others go back to earth.

conclusion?

Honestly? I think she's an odd example of how someone can go from a CM to an MB with genuine character development. Lilith gaining moral standards and points of good to balance out her horrible actions while eventually using her manipulations and plotting for good while still remaining pretty evil under it? I think buys her a spot.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#11185: Jul 17th 2019 at 12:24:16 PM

[tup]Lilith

Btw was it a season two? The trope page lists it as part two of season one.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11186: Jul 17th 2019 at 12:24:20 PM

Having watched this one a bit after you, you know I'm saying yea.

[up] Season 1, part 2, everyone is thrown off by that. Netflix took it's sweet time pumping out the latter half.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 17th 2019 at 3:24:58 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#11187: Jul 17th 2019 at 12:25:52 PM

also...how do we handle a character who starts with a villainous goal, but ultimately utterly reforms and becomes a dyed in the wool good guy...not just a good guy, but kind of a sweet, meek one at that? I have a potential from an anime, and this person starts off as a ruthless manipulator out to do serious damage, but ultimately realizes they've grown to become their mask and they're a genuinely good person under the ruthless exterior?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#11188: Jul 17th 2019 at 12:35:59 PM

I'll hear it. We've allowed characters who pull a Heel–Face Turn before.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#11191: Jul 17th 2019 at 12:38:53 PM

Also...kind of two for one here, as I'll just combine the EP's:

What's the work?

Warriors Orochi centers around the mighty serpent warrior Orochi...imprisoned for a great sin and loosed by the fox woman Da Ji, Orochi merges the Sengoku and Chinese Three Kingdoms era to find worthy opponents, kicking ass and taking names until the gods themselves band together to defeat him. This is about the fourth main game, kind of a soft reboot with time travel and Zeus himself driving the plot....Zeus has merged the worlds, starting a new conflict as the seeming big bad for inexplicable reasons...but in truth, Zeus has good intentions and the new world is meant to serve as a lure for the true villain: Odin...while the one working against Odin from his side? Loki.

Who are Zeus and Loki?

Zeus is the mighty king of the gods with a goal in mind throughout...to stop the insane tyrant Odin, and for that, he's glad to use his children, the gods and mortals alike, designing a new dimensional world and plucking the other heroes out to serve as his pawn.

Loki is a servant of Odin, ostensibly infiltrating Zeus's ranks in the guise of Zeus's son Perseus who aligns himself with the rebels, as Zeus draws the gods and humans into a great war and conflict....now, Zeus knows one thing: Odin won't be able to resist and he's absolutely correct about this.

Loki for his part manipulates the heroes into helping him obtain his items for what he needs, gathering energy to help Odin. Loki spreads the fear of Zeus by manipulating all the armies together, drawing in Odin and allowing him to be summoned...something both gods were counting on. See, Zeus knows the threat of Odin and Loki? Loki despises Odin for killing the people he cared for most, and has longed to destroy him ever since. Loki assists Ares in murdering Zeus temporarily to gain his power for Odin, all while luring the mad god to try to summon the world tree Yggdrasil and destroy the world.

The gods are forced to work alongside the heroes, aiming to strike at Odin and save the world from destruction...Loki helps the heroes revive Zeus...in fact, Zeus is the one who created the magical bracelets being used because this was his plan from the very get go....Zeus didn't anticipate everything, but one thing he got right? The mortals being able to stop Odin, allowing them to take their rightful place in determining their destinies.

Loki then puts his plan into motion at the end betraying Odin at the crucial moment, allowing the heroes to strike back and destroy Odin for good....Loki is used by Odin as a puppet, but ultimately helps the humans to defeat Odin, ending things as Zeus returns them all to their proper places.

How do they operate?

Like champs. Zeus is behind most everyting...he creates the conflict, the war, uses the gods and the humans all to lure in Odin and to teach the gods about needing humanity. He's charming, erudite, charismatic and bold, and even when he's murdered by Ares, which he didn't see coming, his plans still continue without him...okay, granted his big flaw is not telling other people around him about these plans, but in all actuality he does such a damn good job with the plotting and charisma I'm inclined to pass him.

Loki is manipulating everyone, Odin and heroes alike, with no care for humans...but he slowly begins to truly care for them through his time with Perseus and tries to save the world as well as defeating Odin. Loki has everyone dancing to his tune as well, doing splendidly all throughout, and his plots see everything through. He uses hero and villain alike to gain his revenge.

Are they bastards? Too much?

Zeus, good intentions aside, does start a war and treats the gods like pawns. Loki gets a lot of people killed and ruthlessly manipulates them to fight and obtain what he needs, even if Odin kills a lot of them....however, both are well intentioned, have loved ones and end the game on the side of the heroes. Easy pass.

Conclusion?

Easy keeps, both.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#11192: Jul 17th 2019 at 12:55:50 PM

[tup] to Zeus and Loki, Liilth

And [tup] to Axel

Things are really about to get Fun around here
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#11193: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:07:40 PM

Sure to Zeus, Loki and Lilith.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#11194: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:13:58 PM

[tup]Zeus and Loki.

Hey three separate mythological characters in a single day.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#11197: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:54:20 PM

Found this on the The Lion Guard page:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Scar has regained his status as this, shown especially in "The Scorpion's Sting" with his ingenious and nearly successful plan to assassinate Simba and also finish off the Lion Guard for good - he has a scorpion sting Simba's tail and afflict him with a fatal illness that can only be cured by volcanic ash, which lures the Lion Guard plus Makini to his volcano in the Outlands, where he's set blockades of his crocodile, jackal, and hyena minions to slow them down. Then when the Guard gets inside the volcano to collect the ash, Scar himself emerges and reveals that his true trap hasn't even been sprung yet before calling his entire army of animals he's gathered under his lead to attack and attempt to kill them all. And he does all this on the anniversary of his death.
Don't think he was approved. Cut?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#11198: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:58:03 PM

[tup] to Lilith, Zeus and Loki

Well before I go on my flight back to Hawaii tomorrow morning I might as well Artemesia's write-up done so here it is.

  • 300: Rise of an Empire: Artemesia is the brutal female commander of Persia's mighty navy. Desiring vengeance on the Greeks for her hardship she would manipulate the Persian King Xerxes into becoming a God-king and declare war on Greece while she would murder all of his closest allies so that she'll be the only he would trust. Winning many battles on sea and killing her own men when they fail her, she would come to admire Athenian commander Themistocles and offer a position as her lieutenant before the two have passionate sex. When Themistocles refuses, the next day Artemesia orders her men poor oil in the sea while she shoots a fire toward Themistocles's way decimating his forces and nearly killing him. Learning of Themistocles' survival and battling him once more, she only looses to him due to the sudden reinforcements from Sparta and Xerxes decision to abandon her, where she reject's Themistocles' mercy and charges at him declaring that she's ready to face death.

Fun fact all the candidates that I proposed from Greece all have their names start with As

Edited by G-Editor on Jul 16th 2019 at 10:59:53 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#11199: Jul 17th 2019 at 2:06:33 PM

[tup] lilith and Zeus X Loki.

One would have to make a very convincing argument for Scar, but I will say I think a big part of his character is how incompetent he is when he's actually in power. But for now, cut him.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#11200: Jul 17th 2019 at 2:28:14 PM

So, who's next candidate? Well, his case is going to be a tough one. Because we're talking about someone who has been recently approved as a CM. Who are we talking about?

Zantafio, from Spirou & Fantasio.

What's the work?

Quote from Wikipedia : "Spirou and Fantasio (French: Spirou et Fantasio) is one of the most popular classic Franco-Belgian comics. The series, which has been running since 1938, shares many characteristics with other European humorous adventure comics like The Adventures of Tintin and Asterix. It has been written and drawn by a succession of artists.

Spirou and Fantasio are the series' main characters, two adventurous journalists who run into fantastic adventures, aided by Spirou's pet squirrel Spip and their inventor friend the Count of Champignac."

Who is Zantafio? What has he done?

Zantafio is Fantasio's cousin. Created by Franquin (alongside several other characters such as Seccotine, Zorglub, Gaston Lagaffe and the Marsupilami), he makes his first appearance in Spirou et les héritiers (Spirou and the heirs).

Zantafio and Fantasio's uncle, Tanzafio, died and he left them an inheritance. However, only one of them can collect it. To do so, they must : create an original and useful invention, achieve a top 6 Grand Prix race position, and finally capture a mysterious animal, the Marsupilami in the Palombian jungle. Zantafio, hell-bent on getting the inheritance to get rid of his debts, cheats during the first two tasks. The results are mixed : Fantasio wins the first one, but Zantafio barely wins the second one. The third task proves the hardest, the Marsupilami is nigh-impossible to capture, until it accidentally drinks a gallon of heating oil. Spirou and Fantasio successfully captures him. Zantafio, having seen the errors of his ways, rescue them when natives attempt to kill them, and gives them his boat so that they can come back to Europe. Meanwhile, Zantafio remained in the Palombian forest, in a quest for redemption...

Sadly, the complete opposite happened : Zantafio lost whatever remained of his redeeming qualities in that forest.

In his second appearance, Le Dictateur et le Champignon (The Dictator and the Mushroom), Zantafio became General Zantas, the dictator of Palombia, and plans to start a War for Fun and Profit with a neighboring country, Guaracha. He's only foiled when Spirou and Fantasio sabotage the military equipment. However, while he doesn't reach the cleverness he has later shown, when Spirou and Fantasio seemingly pulls a Face–Heel Turn, he remains distrustful and hid a radio transmitter in their car, and a microphone in their home to spy on them just in case they try to do something against his government. That, even when Spirou and Fantasio seemingly prove their trust. He also out-gambits Spirou and Seccotine (her English name is apparently Cellophine, but I'm just used to say her original name), knowing where they would go after sabotaging his third army's equipment. He also hid a working rifle and was only defeated thanks to Fantasio also having one.

Housted from power, Zantafio comes back in La Mauvaise Tête (Literal translation : The Bad Head; English adaptation : A Head for Crime). Here, alongside a partner in crime (who he later betrays), he steals an Egyptian mask and, with a mask similar to Fantasio, plans to frame his cousin for the crime, out of petty spite for his previous defeat, but because he went from Riches to Rags. He almost succeeds (and almost successfully gets rid of the evidence), but Spirou foils him.

In L'ombre du Z, Zantafio is Zorglub's Dragon. They use Zorglub's invention, the Zorglwave (original French name: Zorglonde)note , to hypnotize people into buying Zorglub's soap and toothpaste to fund their activities... However, Zantafio pulls a starscream by also using the Zorglwave to commit robberies in order to prepare an invasion of Palombia. When found out (even Zorglub is shocked), Zantafio tries to use the Zorglwave against Zorglub, and eventually ends up being arrested. However, before that, he shows he's good by first sneak-attacking Spirou with the Zorglwave (unknown to him, thanks to Champignac, Spirou was unaffected), then sending Spirou in a swimming pool full of piranhas when it turns out Spirou was unaffected. He's only saved thanks to the Marsupilami, who loves piranhas... As food. He then flees, recovers a Zorglwave, and immediately shoots Zorglub with it when he tries to stop him. However, the Zorglwave blew up in his face and he's quickly stopped thanks to Fantasio.

In Le Faiseur d'Or, Zantafio kidnaps Champignac, due to him having created a gold-producing machine, out of Greed. He's however, foiled by Spirou and Fantasio. However, he shows clever thinking, having one his men, Lil' Flower disguised as Spirou seemingly tortured in front of Champignac to force him to tell them about who wrote a book necessary to create the machine. It works completely. On the meanwhile, Spirou and Fantasio were spying on them, hoping to find a way to save Champignac. Zantafio, however, Out-Gambitted them and was behind them, holding them at gunpoint. While Spirou disarms him, Lil' Flower captures him and Fantasio. Once they're captured, he plans to kill them with an opened gas cylinder, expecting the owner of the house to light it, accidentally causing an explosion (up to you if it can also count as Bond Villain Stupidity). They're only saved by the Marsupilami. During the night, Zantafio has Lil' Flower uses a machine to project holograms of their choosing (with hidden sound amplifiers to boot) during the night, frightening Spirou, Fantasio, Spip and the Marsupilami. Even when Spirou deduced it's only projections, Zantafio had Lil' Flower connect a battery to a fence (which was right in Spirou's path, who couldn't see it thanks to the hologram), leading to Spirou getting shocked. He also has a hotelier spy on Spirou and Fantasio during their stay in a hotel nearby. Said hotelier promptly informed them when Spirou and Fantasio seemingly left the town (in truth, Spirou eavesdropped on a telephone conversation between Zantafio and the hotelier, promoting him to lie to him). When they entered the castle (they had, on top of that, already created the gold-making machine thanks to the book's instructions, but it wasn't working for some reason, and only started worked when the Marsupilami accidentally hit it) in which they were hidden, Zantafio nonetheless escaped with the book. Spirou however, recovered it, putting an end to Zantafio's scheme.

In Tora Torapa, Zantafio, as Papa Pop, is the leader of the Triangle an international organized criminal organization. He tries to take control of Polynesian nuclear installations. To do so, the Triangle kidnaps Zorglub, brought him to Tora Torapa Island and tricked him into creating a mosquito-attracting transmitter with a 10000-kilometer range. Then, he places the transmitter in the nuclear installations, before activating it. He also trapped tons of mosquitoes, which he plans to release when everything is ready. These mosquitoes will be attracted to the transmitter, eliminate all life in the factories, allowing Zantafio to take over. When Spirou, Fantasio, Champignac and Itoh Kata arrive in the island to rescue Zorglub, Zantafio has his men reinforce the coastal surveillance. He also sent his men after them, not afraid of threatening a native village to find them. When Ororéa, one of them, escapes, he takes hostage her uncle to force her to surrender. However, when they sneak into his base, Zantafio reveals his real self and captures them. He then places them right in front of the mosquitoes' cage, planning to Kill Em All when releasing the mosquitoes in the process. He's ultimately foiled thanks to Zorglub who eventually figured out Zantafio deceived him and sabotaged the transmitter and Zantafio's plane. He has a Villainous Breakdown in his third-to-last panel, but by his next panel, he regained his calm.

In Spirou à Moscou, Zantafio, as The White Prince of Crime Tanaziof, became influent in the Russian Mafia, claiming to be a descendant of the Tsar. He has the Russian Mafia infiltrate the KGB, thus knowing everything they plan to do against them in advance. As such he knows about Spirou and Fantasio's presence in Moscow and has his Dragon attempt to assassinate them while they're still in their car, after arriving to Moscow. He plans to abduct the body of Lenin and to ask the Russian government for a huge ransom for its return. He succeeds, and when Spirou and Fantasio attempts to stops him, he and his men easily stops them, tie them up, and Zantafio leave them with a bomb, (originally destined to be used to pull a Landslide, in a Kansas City Shuffle to cover their escape) and not even Spip can stop it (Zantafio gagged him to prevent him from using his teeth to untie Spirou and Fantasio). They're only saved Just in Time by the KGB. Zantafio then hids in a theater, during a theatrical performance, where no one would expect him. When Spirou and Fantasio hid amongst the dancers, Zantafio immediately recognizes them, sending 3 of his men to hide amongst the dancers to assassinate them. Spirou and Fantasio, however manages to flee with Lenin's corpse, which, on top of that, is accidentally crushed by a tank. His true identity is also found out, and he flees. Disguising himself as an aide, he pretends to help Spirou and Fantasio packing their things (which should also allow him to discretely go with them, and thus escape the Russian), only stopped by an unknowning and grateful guy who helped Spirou and Fantasio because they saved his daughter. He nonetheless achieves a Near-Villain Victory, and an impressive one on top of that.

In L'Homme qui ne voulait pas mourir, Zantafio manages somehow to escape Russia and lays low in his uncle's home, evading the Russian Mafia. He finds out that his and Fantasio's uncle Tanzafio is still alive. He abducts him, and, using him as leverage, captures Spirou and Fantasio as well. Finding out that his uncle regained youth, and learning about a fountain of youth, he plans to steal for himself the water from said fountain of youth, in Guaracha. He also leaves his uncle, Spirou and Fantasio to die in an arson in Tanzafio's old home, to make sure the former two wouldn't stop him and also because they outlived their usefulness (they only escape thanks to Fantasio). In Guaracha, he takes advantage of a rivalry between farmers (with their leader, Selvo) and natives (with their leader, Katxina, who's also in love with Selvo), manipulates the former into helping him (while planning to get rid of them once they're no longer useful). However, Zantafio accidentally touches a golden skull, despite his uncle telling him not to, raising the dead, who wants them to be dead. Zantafio briefly pulls an Enemy Mine with Spirou, Fantasio, Katxina and Tanzafio and defeat the undead, at the cost of Selvo and Katxina's lives. When they finally reaches the Fountain of Youth, Selvo and Katxina are revived there, but Zantafio manages nonetheless to steal a good part of the water in the process (with one of his goons killing Tanzafio, not that Zantafio cares) and flees. That said, having been tainted by Selvo and Katxina's blood, the water is useless and Zantafio has to deal with the Russian Mafia out for his blood (and only because he revealed himself while selling the water to gain money; otherwise, they wouldn't have found him). Another Near-Villain Victory, however.

In his latest appearance, La Colère du Marsupilami, Spirou and Fantasio barely saves him from the Russian Mafia, as they need him to track down their former Team Pet, the Marsupilami (Who was Put on a Bus after Franquin, his creator, left the Dupuis editions. The Bus Came Back when Dupuis brought up Marsu Productions, who held the rights to the Marsupilami). Turns out, after Le Faiseur d'Or, Zantafio was broke. After hearing that a wealthy Palombian was willing to give a lot of money if he was given an alive Marsupilami, Zantafio used the Zorglwave to brainwash Spirou, Fantasio, Spip into giving him the Marsupilami, whom he sold out. To make sure Spirou and Fantasio doesn't try to later stop him, Zantafio also used the Zorglwave to make them forget about the Marsupilami. Remembering about the Marsupilami (because others around didn't forget, as Zantafio didn't need to brainwash them), Spirou and Fantasio tracked him down and rescued him from the Russian Mafia. Then, they went to Palombia. Zantafio, despite that Enemy Mine, proves to be still as vile as ever, trying to capture the Marsupilami again so that he could sell it to pharmaceutical companies, since they were looking for rare genes, leaving Spirou and Fantasio to die when their boat was threatened, using the Zorglwave on animals in order to brainwash them into attacking the Marsupilami, and almost succeeds, leaving Spirou and Fantasio forced to deal with the animals while he runs off with the unconscious Marsupilami. His plans are ultimately foiled by Spip (who wakes up the Marsupilami), and he's knocked unconscious by the Marsupilami, and left to deal with the natives. Yet, another Near-Villain Victory (and The Bad Guy Wins in a flashback)

Is he charming? Intelligent?

Charm? Absolutely. In L'homme qui ne voulait pas mourir, he had no problem manipulating Selvo and the villagers to do what he wants. He even fooled the Russian Mafia into thinking he's a member of the imperial family. His charm, as strange as it sounds, also resides in his villainy : unlike other Spirou villains, like Vito Cortizone and Zorglub, he's taken completely seriously. It makes him stands out well enough he became an Ensemble Dark Horse, and is considered to be the true Big Bad of the entire series... Despite appearing only in 12 albums out of 60, counting the spin-off albums. Yeah. As Papa Pop, he's also Laughably Evil, which also helps. To tell you how far his charm goes, that guy got the Draco in Leather Pants treatment. Hard. Just look for fanart of him.

Intelligence? He achieved countless Near Villain Victories against Spirou and Fantasio, and even won against them once by successfully capturing and selling the Marsupilami. He out-smarted and played geniuses like Champignac and Zorglub into doing what he wants through impressive Batman Gambits. He's also good in deception, using the standard 419 scam to fool people, so that he could regain money and deal with the Russian Mafia. He was not 100% convinced of Spirou and Fantasio's supposed Face–Heel Turn and had his agents spy on them in The Dictator and the Mushroom. Turns out that he was Properly Paranoid. Also, when he tried to sell the Marsupilami, he knew that the Marsupilami can No-Sell the Zorglwave. So he instead used it on Spirou, Fantasio, Zantafio, Champignac and even Spip to "convince" them to give him the Marsupilami. It completely worked, giving to Zantafio a complete victory for the first time.

Thinking on his feet?

Let's see... Yeah, he can. For example, in L'Ombre du Z, when it turns out Spirou can No-Sell the Zorglwave thanks to Champignac, Zantafio immediately pushed him in a swimming pool full of piranhas, and would have succeeded in killing him right then and here if it wasn't for the Marsupilami. In The Wrath of the Marsupilami, when remembering that pharmaceutical companies were looking for rare genes, he immediately set a plan in motion to capture the Marsupilami. Which almost worked if it wasn't for Spip.

What about the competition?

Most Spirou villains are Monsters of the Week, which in itself is already detrimental against Zantafio. Cyanure, the one other villain taken completely seriously, has sadly tendencies to do things For the Evulz, unlike Zantafio's Pragmatic Villainy. As for the other main villains, Zorglub and Vito Cortizone? The latter is too much of a Butt-Monkey to count, and both suffered Villain Decay. On top of that, Zantafio had no problem manipulating Zorglub into doing his bidding. While Zorglub eventually realized that he was fooled, this remains nonetheless impressive. Even Champignac, a genius even better than Zorglub, was completely fooled by Zantafio's Batman Gambit in Le Faiseur d'Or.

So yeah, Zantafio is on another level.

Is he a bastard? Too much of a bastard?

Zantafio has been upvoted in the CM thread. There's a reason for that. He's greedy, unfettered, Would Hit a Girl (and even kill one; fortunately, thanks to Zorglub, Ororéa lived to tell the tale), planned to leave Spirou in And I Must Scream fate in L'Ombre du Z, Would Harm a Senior (his own uncle, to boot), was not above starting a War for Fun and Profit, or exterminating the entire personnel of nuclear installments and has no problem hurting anyone to reach his goals, be it human or animal. When someone is no use for him anymore, he has no problem abandoning him.

So, you may ask : he can he do that, and not be too much of a bastard? Well, that's thanks to his Pragmatic Villainy : he rarely, if ever, does things For the Evulz. He may be horrible, evil to the core, with no regret or remorse whatsoever for his deeds, but each and every one of his deeds is done for the sake of his goal, no matter how selfish, greedy or despicable it may be. Even hurting animals is for the sake of a goal? Kidnapping and selling the Marsupilami? He needed money. Trying to strangle and then shoot dead Spirou and Fantasio's Team Pet Spip? Spip tried to take Tanzafio's diary, and Zantafio needed it. As such, the closest thing he got to "Bad Boss" was verbal attacks on his men when they failed him in Tora Torapa and an Implied Death Threat to his Dragon in Spirou à Moscou.

Verdict ?

Leaning [tdown], but I'll let you guys decide.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 18th 2019 at 3:32:19 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

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