During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I also didn't mean to sound rude. I'm genuinely sorry if I came across that Polar.
Edit:
You posted just before me.
It's okay. Still sorry if it came off that way.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 16th 2019 at 1:17:28 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadSo, I was reading one of my favorite comic books' TV Tropes article, and I found this unproven entry :
- Magnificent Bastard: Mac Nab has some shades of this towards the end of "The Prey And The Shadow".
I'm going to cut it for now, re-read the story, and see if he's worth an EP. But Yoko Tsuno isn't exactly famous for its villains, so I'm unsure.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)I said I would do Kaiba, but now that we are talking MCU, I think this one was a long time coming.
Who is Nick Fury?
The MCU version of Nick Fury: Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., the man who brought the Avengers together, and a keeper of many secrets. Going from one of many agents in Captain Marvel to the head of the whole damn thing.
During the early movies, Nick Fury gathered up heroes for his eventual "Avengers Initiative", recruiting, Tony Stark, Natasha Romanov, Steve Rogers, Clint Barton, and Bruce Banner to his cause. Fury also started to perform experiments on the Tesseract in order to develop secretly weapons for S.H.I.E.L.D. to counter powerful extraterrestrial threats. Unfortunately, Loki stole the Tesseract and took several brainwashed agents with him, resulting in Fury sending Tony, Steve, and Natasha after him.
Loki was captured, with Thor joining the group on the Helicarrier, but Tony, hacking into S.H.I.E.L.D.'s database, discovered Fury's plan and called him out. However, the brainwashed agents attacked and Loki escaped, resulting in Phil Coulson's death. Fury took advantage of his death to motivate the Avengers in action against Loki, going as far as taking cards in Coulson's locker and dipping them into his blood to make it look like they were on his person.
With the Chitauri invading Manhattan, the World Security Council ordered the city nuked, which Fury called "a stupid ass decision". Despite this, the missile was launched, and yet the Avengers beat back the invasion and deflected the missile into the portal, destroying the Chitauri. Thus, Fury had truly given birth to the first superhero team in the MCU.
However, now Fury decided to resurrect Coulson with Project T.A.H.I.T.I., a process created by Coulson that was so horrific that he ordered in shut down. Fury restarted it anyway and wiped Coulson's memory of the events and of his involvement in the project. He then ordered Melinda May to construct a team to monitor Coulson.
Fury had shut down his whole Tesserect weapon project, but had another big project in mind: Project Insight, three Helicarriers that would monitor the world. However, Fury discovered that Hydra had infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D., with plans to use Project Insight to kill millions to secure Hydra's world domination, and that he was targeted for assassination. Faking his death, Fury went underground and formulated a plan to destroy the Helicarriers with help from Steve, Natasha, and newcomer Sam Wilson. Fury confronted his superior, Alexander Pierce, and shot him dead as the Helicarriers came crashing down.
He then went to assist Coulson's team in fighting Hydra agent John Garret, resulting in the latter's death. He then made Coulson director of S.H.I.E.L.D. and retired.
However, as it turned out, Fury wasn't done with S.H.I.E.L.D. yet, as he and Coulson started up the secret Theta Protocol (which disappointingly turned out to just be repairing the original Helicarrier). Since nobody knew what that was, a Civil War erupted in S.H.I.E.L.D.. When Ultron became a threat, Fury helped report Ultron's activity and encouraged them to come up with a plan. At the climatic battle in Sokovia, where Ultron has turned the city into a meteroid to kill all life on the planet, Fury arrived with the aforementioned Helicarrier to evacuate the citizens.
Fury has not played a major role since. In Avengers: Infinity War, he called Carol Danvers back from space as he was disintegrated by the Snap. After coming back in Avengers: Endgame, he left Earth along with the Skrulls to form S.W.O.R.D., leaving Talos to take his place during Spider-Man: Far From Home.
Is he charismatic? Charming? Thinks on his feet?
Nick Fury is played by motherfucking Samuel L. Jackson, motherfucker!
Nick is the Big Good of the MCU, at least on Earth. He's a reasonable fellow who has everyone's best interests in mind. Behavior wise, he's at worst overly snarky.
He's also a master manipulator. If things are going wrong, he can play his way around the situation until he has the advantage. The main reason the heroes win in Captain America: The Winter Soldier is because Nick Fury has outwitted the Big Bad early on.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Despite being the Big Good, Fury is shady as all hell. He keeps so many secrets that it causes his own allies to second guess him. He is also willing to create dangerous weaponry for the sake of keeping the peace, first with the Tesseract and next with Project Insight. There is also Project T.A.H.I.T.I. and Coulson's horrific resurrection. But with that said, he still has everyone's best interests in mind. He's a good guy, but a very pragmatic and shady one willing to make unethical decisions, kind of like L.
Verdict?
You decide.
Textbook Guile Hero.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Well... On one part, yeah, to say that guy is sneaky is an understatement. On another, I'm not sure if he's enough of a bastard to qualify.
So, for Fury? I'll abstain.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Oh, really? Then I suppose he's better off as a Guile Hero. Switching to a no for him.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 16th 2019 at 12:02:05 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Hmm..With Fury, Personaly I think Satoshi has a point in that He does develop dangerous Weapons planning to make an entire Arsenal of them With the Tesseract, and the whole thing about Project T.A.H.I.T.I
Though it's been awhile sense I saw the first season, while it was bad, just how bad was the Project again?
Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 16th 2019 at 3:07:15 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereEh, I'm personally gonna give him a Weak
if only for the stuff from the TV Shows, namely it's emphasised Coulsens ressurection was HORRIFYING as seen here.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRmEJgDGwY
That being said i can see exactly why Others feel he Dosent count. Damn good character though.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 16th 2019 at 3:30:25 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
to Nick Fury
Aright so I got another one to propose. Given my recent proposals of Aspasia and Amorges, I thought it would be appropriate to EP another felon from the Greek era, this time from the movie 300: Rise of an Empire.
What’s the Work?
300 Rise of an Empire serves as the sequel to the legendary 300 (member THIS. IS. SPARTA!). Basically It follows the aftermath of Leonidas death where the Athenians take Sparta’s place to drive Persia out of Sparta. With the battle now taking place at sea the Athenian commander Themistocles comes to blows with this female Persian commander. This. is. Artemisia!
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Artemisia is the Big Bad of this sequel whose family was killed Greeks. Taken captive to suffer terrible physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the Greeks before being left for dead, she would be found by Persians who then proceed to raise and train her into becoming a fierce warrior loyal to the Persians.
Eventually earning the favor of the Persian King Darius, she was there to here his final words to his son Xerxes to tell him to end the campaign against the Greece, saying that only a god can defeat them before he dies after Artemesia ends his speech mid-sentence.
However Artemisia would twist Darius’ words to manipulate Xerxes telling him to become a God-King so that he may invade and defeat Greece. Following Artemisia’s words Xerxes would transform into the god-king and declare war on Greece while Artemisia would kill all of Xerxes’s closest allies so that she would be the only one Xerxes would trust and follow.
Commanding the Persian fleet Artemisia would win many battles for Xerxes by using her strategic mind and fighting prowess while killing numerous Greek soldiers and even her own men should they not meet her brilliant standards.
Eventually finding a Worthy Opponent in Athenian commander Themistocles, she would offer him a position in her fleet as her second-in-command. Themistocles was swayed by Artemisia enough to consider her offer and even have sex with her, but decided to reject her offer due to his loyalties to Greece.
Artemesia would then win a battle against Themistocles by coming up with a brilliant strategy where she would fire arrows with deadly accuracy at the Greeks, and ends up killing Themistocles’s second Scyllias. She then sets the Greek ships ablaze by ordering her men to pour oil into the sea. She then shoots a fire arrow at Themistocles' ship, decimating his forces and nearly killing Themistocles.
When Artemesia learns that Themistocles survives she would prepare her forces to battle him. When her king Xerxes orders her not to so saying that he’s her king, Artemesia merely shrugs Xerxes off while retorting back that she was the reason he became king in the first place.
She would then facing battle with Themistocles once more but not before she personally slays many Greeks. After a long and enduring battle with Themistocles, she watches as Spartans arrived to help the Athenians fight against the Persians while Xerxes has abandon her to save himself. Themistocles then offers Artemesia a chance to surrender herself only for to immediately rejects his offer proudly saying that she’s ready to face death before charging at him forcing Themistocles to kill her.
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
As a battle commander she is definitely intelligent and charismatic as she flawlessly manipulates many characters, including a king, into dancing to her tune while coming up with many brilliant battle strategies that ensures her victories for the Persian.
She’s also an utter master in personal combat killing many Greeks with ease and is not afraid of dying spitting on Themistocles’s mercy before charging at him which could add more to her charisma.
What’s The Competition Like?
Since it would be revealed that she had manipulated the previous Big Bad King Xerxes into become a tool for her revenge against the Greeks I say she clears the competition by a mile, with no one else coming close to her intelligence and skills in manipulation.
Is She a Bastard? Is She Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay she has manipulated a king into declaring war to a country she hates, kills of Xerxes closest allies to make much more easy to manipulate, has killed a few of her own men when she considers them failures, and has murder many Greeks. So yeah she’s a bastard.
That said there is a good reason why she hates Greece given that they killed her whole family and took her prisoner and physically and sexually abuse. Also she has showed genuine respect for Themistocles despite him being a Greek and was upset when she refused to join her. So I say she’s not too much to not be disqualified.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave it to you guys to decide!
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 16th 2019 at 1:43:52 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSure to Artemisia.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

And that's why I ain't doing him. The popular perception of him here is of a childish, petty slime ball. And I don't think I'm changing minds anytime soon.