During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Just a reminder, does anyone wanna help me trim this (I've been struggling to do it):
Magnificent Bastard: Omar a "stick-up man" in Baltimore who robs drug dealers for a living. His first episode has him robbing one of Avon Barksdales' Stash house's. Avon puts out a hit on him and his crew, and manages to succeed in killing Bailey and torturing to death Omar's boyfriend. Over the course of the next three seasons Omar retaliates buy killing some of those responsible and sending others to prison by testifying. In the meanwhile he uses his charm and cunning to rob stash houses. This culminates in him killing Stringer Bell, Avon's right-hand man. Because of this and other factors the Barksdale organization collapses soon after. In season 4 Proposition Joe sends Omar to rob an underground poker game which a new drug kingpin named Marlo is attending so he can get Marlo to join a criminal cooperative. Marlo wanting revenge frames Omar for murder. Omar beats the charge, and then blackmails Joe into giving up Marlo's new drug shipment. However, Omar double-crosses Joe and then steals the entire cooperative drug shipment instead of Marlo's. Omar then sells it back to Joe and announces his retirement. In season 5, Marlo who still wants revenge, has Omar's mentor tortured and killed. Omar returns to Baltimore, but he is briefly outgunned. He then goes on a warpath burning Marlo's drugs and money and calling Marlo out to face him. While he dies before this can come to fruition, the taunts prove to be very effective, as by the end of the series Marlo has faded into obscurity whereas Omar has become a legend.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid- Legacy of Kain: The Necromancer Mortanius of the Pillar of Death helped to lead a rebellion that overthrew the vampires before he became aware of the Hylden being held back by the Pillars of Balance. Possessed by the Hylen leader, the Unspoken, and used to murder the Guardian of Balance, Mortanius sets the events of the series in motion by having the petty noble and heir to Balance, Kain, murdered and revives him as a vampire to kill the brigands who slew him to begin with. Once this is achieve, Mortanus manipulates Kain to steadily purge the Circle, ending with Kain killing him as well, all with the intent of returning the Pillars to vampire ownership.
Well the cruise ship is about to leave soon so I won’t have internet to contact you guys until I get to Boston on the twelfth. So I hope to chat you guys then
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff- Death Note: L Lawliet, world-class detective and Light Yagami, the serial killer known as Kira's intellectual rival makes his first appearance by sacrificing a death row inmate to draw out the notorious mass killer. After using it to deduce the location, abilities, and attitude of Kira, he invites Light to his team, keeping consistently one step ahead of him. Knowing nearly everything about Kira, including his likely identity of Light, Light only manages to defeat him via a Memory Gambit and literally has to kill a God to get to L. Even then, L's contingencies allow his proteges, Near and Mello, to defeat Light, who acknowledges L as his equal and states that they are nothing in comparison.
I'm not loving it, but it's what I came out with. Someone wants to rewrite, be my guest.
@ Riley, Lemme know if you like this:
- Death Note: L Lawliet is the world's best detective and the Arch-Enemy and only intellectual equal of Light Yagami aka Kira. Introducing himself by tricking Light into revealing his location by sacrificing a death row inmate, L goes on to pursue Light with unfettered ruthlessness. With only mundane resources at his disposal, L manages to constantly evade Light's supernaturally-backed attempts to kill him and becomes ever-closer to exposing Light for his crimes. Even when Light deliberately loses his memories of his work as a Serial Killer, L continues to close in on his enemy and is only finally killed when Light convinces a Shinigami to take out L by giving its own life. Having left a fail-safe to inform his successors of his passing, L's posthumous machination leaves Near and Mello the field to finally take down Light, leaving his rival to scream and plead for his life before his own death.
Edit: Apparently Near has a character page too
Edited by 43110 on Jul 10th 2019 at 11:23:13 AM
And here's one from Attack on Titan...Erwin Smith.
Who is Erwin Smith?
The head of the elite Survey Corps...Attack on Titan takes place within the Walls. Long ago, the Titans appeared: man-eating giants who wiped humanity out. Humanity lives guarded within three vast walls...and then a Titan vaster than any other destroys one, letting the Titans overwhelm the first wall, with many of the surviving humanity members dying.
Erwin is the head of the top soldiers for humanity, a man dedicated to preserving humans no matter what the cost. As a child, he witnessed his father arrested and executed by the dystopian government for his political beliefs and has desired to prove him right ever since...rising through the ranks, Erwin developed a formation that led to many Titans being destroyed, reducing casualties, while recruiting people for the Survey Corps with Brutal Honesty: 50 percent will die fromt he start, and more will die coming up.
Erwin is also close to humanity's strongest warrior, Levi Rivaille, having manipulated him and his early friends into joining the Corps to great effect...when humanity is threatened? Erwin becomes the man for the job as things reveal a conspiracy....namely that some Titans are actually shapeshifting humans that have infiltrated the military ranks....even as a young man Erwin implemented brilliant strategies that used others as pawns or bait, because Erwin will sacrifice anyone to see his war through.
now, Erwin? Ends up manipulating the heroes as well, using them and his soldiers as bait to draw out the Titan conspiracy, suspecting the series hero and Titan shifter Eren Jeager is behind some sort of conspiracy...and he's absolutely right. This draws out two of the other top young recruits, Bertolt and Reiner, as Titan shifters, putting the entire district at risk from the fight. Eren is captured and Erwin sets out to give chase, even resorting to such ruthless means as...using himself as bait to lure a swarm of Titans in to harry Bertolt and Reiner as well. Erwin loses an arm, but fights his way from a Titan's grasp to wound Bertolt and recover Eren...dedicated to uncovering a secret that lies in Eren's old home, that his father, Grisha Jaeger kept within the family basement.
Arrested for his supposed treason, Erwin, Levi and their superior, Dot Pixis have also uncovered a major conspircy in the government, which is ruled by a corrupt shadow monarchy and enforced with ruthless efficiency. Erwin is scheduled for execution but manages to plan out a coup with the others to remove the true king, Rod Reiss, from power and replace him with his bastard daughter Historia....Erwin manages to help organize the plans which succeed, all preparing a contingency in case he's execute to report a fake Titan breach so the people will see the monarchy's lack of care for them.
Erwin then organizes the retaking of the province of Shinganshina, going up against the Titan known as 'The Beast Titan,' another powerful Shifter and genius in his own right....also realizing his own selfishness for casting away so many soldiers to see his own dreams through, when hemmed in and escape being impossible...Erwin decides to give Levi the opening to take the Beast out, electing on a suicide charge with his forces, resulting in most wiped out, though Levi manages to defeat the Titans, as Eren and team defeat Reiner and Bertolt behind them....
Erwin briefly survives and Levi seeks to use a serum to turn erwin into a Titan so he can eat the captive Bertolt and heal...but Erwin, resolving to die as he'd already decided, knocks the serum away, opting to die in peace on his own terms....Levi later buries his body respectfully, telling the others to let Erwin sleep at last.
How's he operate?
Bold, charismatic, a genius on the field or in the political arena? Erwin has it all going for him. He's possessed of both cold and vibrant charisma, winning people over easily, convincing others to dedicate themselves to his cause or to give their lives for humanity. Erwin has a series of brilliant, ruthless gambits that work and he's only ever bested by the Beast Titan, or Zeke Jeager, the smartest character...but even then, he's able to nearly take Zeke out via using his life as a decoy to help Levi get an attack on him. Erwin operates like a genius each and every time and is rarely ever at a loss, even unto the end
any mitigating factors?
The only major thing...Erwin is ruthless, and while he'll sacrifice countless soldiers, he cares for and treasures all of them. But he won't hesitate to use people's lives as acceptable risks to save humanity....he does eventually acknowledge that his true dream was to prove his father right and subconsciously, he's been very, very selfish, which he gives his life to atone for. He's definitely a ruthless bastard, but he cares greatly for Levi, humanity and many people around him.
Conclusion?
A very easy yes.
Indeed a easy yes for Erwin Smith.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)This is a draft of the write up for Diva. I would appreciate suggestions to improve it.
- Yu-Gi-Oh! The Dark Side of Dimensions: Diva was once a student under Shadi, and one of the children that could wield the dimensional powers of the Plana. After Shadi was killed by Dark Bakura, Diva swore revenge on the killer's host, adopting the identity of "Aigami" to get close to him and Yugi. Upon learning of Kaiba's quest to bring back Atem, which would result in the Plana and it's power disappearing, Diva dueled Kaiba in an attempt to stop him, and when that failed stole two pieces of the Millennium Puzzle. Confronting and banishing Bakura to another dimension, Diva was forced into a duel with Yugi by Kaiba, where he attempted to coax Yugi into joining him before trying to kill him. Though the events that transpired resulted in Atem's brief return and the Plana vanishing, Diva ultimately accepted his loss.
Alright here's my effort post trimmed a little (I would also appreciate any suggestions):
Magnificent Bastard: Omar a "stick-up man" in Baltimore who robs drug dealers for a living. His first episode has him robbing one of Avon Barksdales' Stash house's. Avon puts out a hit on him and his crew and manages to succeed in killing one of his crew and torturing to death Omar's boyfriend. Over the course of the next three seasons, Omar retaliates against the Barksdale organization culminating in him killing Stringer Bell, Avon's right-hand man. Because of this and other factors the Barksdale organization collapses soon after. In season 4 Omar robs Marlo Stanfield a new westside kingpin. Marlo, wanting revenge, frames Omar for murder. Omar beats the charge, and then blackmails Proposition Joe, another kingpin, into giving up Marlo's new drug shipment. However, Omar double-crosses Joe and then steals a much larger shipment instead of Marlo's. Omar then sells it back to Joe and announces his retirement. In season 5, Marlo who still wants revenge, has Omar's mentor killed. Omar returns to Baltimore, but he is briefly outgunned. He then goes on a warpath and calls Marlo out to face him. While he dies before this can come to fruition, the taunts prove to be very effective, as by the end of the series Marlo has faded into obscurity whereas Omar has become a legend.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid![]()
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Pretty sure Kaiba counts. I was a little hesitant on okaying Diva as an MB because Kaiba's plan is focused on in more detail and is successful—Kaiba goes the entire movie virtually unopposed, is able to dig up and reassemble the puzzle that took Yugi eight years to solve in hours, is able to capture Diva despite the latter being able to teleport and disintegrate people, has tabs on the entire city via their duel disks and brainwaves, and ultimately gets what he wants despite everyone, even Yugi, saying it's impossible. Thanks mainly to the focus on Kaiba, the first time I saw DSOD I ended up seeing Diva as a Plot-Irrelevant Villain.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jul 10th 2019 at 2:42:37 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.

to Diva
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff