During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Sasori.
to Sasori so just arrived at Bermuda and lucky lucky they have internet (My dad had to pay for an international plan but still yay)
Will say 'Yes' to Sasori and Seto.
Now to discuss one on my To-Do, one of my favorite manga, Pluto.
What's the work?
Set in an AU of the popular manga Astro Boy, the story takes place in the far future, where humans and robots live together. Robots come in all shapes and sizes, from those who are programmed to do daily duties and nothing more, to some who are so lifelike they look and even are humanlike in every regard except physically.
As a spree of brutal murders of both humans and robots alike begins plaguing the world, robot police investigator Gesicht works with a variety of colorful characters to get to the bottom of the murders, a bottom that goes all the way to the top...
Who is Dr. Roosevelt? What makes him a candidate?
Dr. Roosevelt is a super computer AI and the most genius robot in the entire world, serving as the personal advisor to the President of the United States of Thracia. He's also an immobile teddy bear. So.
Anywho, Dr. Roosevelt has personally assisted Thracia in rising to become an immense world power, using his great intelligence to advise the President to make the best choices and lead Thracia to prosperity. When rumors begin circulating that the country of Persia is developing the most advanced robots the world has ever seen and the President becomes nervous of Persia potentially becoming a threat to Thracia and the world, Roosevelt concocts a scheme.
Framing Persia as developing weapons of mass destruction, not just robots, Roosevelt orchestrates the 39th Central Asian Conflict, a horrible war between Thracia and Persia that resulted in countless deaths on both sides but primarily Persia's.
Roosevelt? Had a personal stake in this, as he wanted to ensure that Persia couldn't make a move on Thracia...because Roosevelt has secretly assumed control of Thracia, having his stuffed paws in politics, weapons systems, military affairs and more, using the President as his figurehead while making the man believe he's still in control.
After the war, Roosevelt uses his connections to learn that a "Dr. Abullah" is making plans against Thracia (or he might have already planned on Abullah doing this, it isn't made clear if Roosevelt was planning the whole thing or if he just came up with his next phase on the fly), and begins secretly backing Abullah, paving the way for the man's schemes.
With Roosevelt's help in many regards, Abullah hunts down and murders several members of the "Bora Investigation Squad", a group of scientists who had traveled to Persia during the war to find any evidence of a supposed "weapon of mass destruction" called Bora, and used the robot Pluto to help kill the world's 7 strongest robots.
Continuing to help the President make speeches and improve Thracia, Roosevelt eventually ensures that Abullah is able to transport his weapon "Bora" to a park in Thracia that has a massive magma pocket beneath it....Abullah plans to detonate a bomb inside the magma pocket and annihilate Thracia for kick-starting the 39th Central Asian Conflict, meanwhile Roosevelt is fully aware of the fact that the bomb won't just destroy Thracia—it will flood the atmosphere of the world with sulfur and ash that will kill 90% of the world's population.
When the meteorologist robot Arnold notices a minor crack forming in a skyscraper that is a sign of magma shifting beneath the surface of the Earth, he tries to warn Thracia about the Bora robot, and Roosevelt heads him off at every turn, but Arnold is ultimately able to convince the hero Atom (aka Astro Boy) and his friends of the threat of Bora.
Though other politicians disregard Arnold's warnings, the President takes them to heart and confronts Roosevelt, who acknowledges that he has manipulated everyone to insure that most of humanity is annihilated, leaving Roosevelt and robotkind to rule over the planet. When the President begs Roosevelt to save him, Roosevelt assures the President that he will protect the President and at least 10% of humanity for the President to be the designated leader of....in exchange for the President swearing to be Roosevelt's slave for as long as he lives.
As Atom and a redeemed Pluto manage to destroy Bora, Roosevelt reassures the President that even if Abullah never became a threat, Roosevelt already had plans to subjugate humanity through other methods and was in control of Thracia for long before.....however, as the resident Hannibal Lecter-Expy, Brau 1589, arrives in Roosevelt's lair, having escapes his long-confinement with help of Atom, Roosevelt welcomes the robot, having a personal respect for Brau due to being one of the few robots to have ever killed a human, and offers him a partnership.
Brau, however, has no intent of helping Roosevelt, finding him too evil even for his twisted wires, and sacrifices himself to tear out a spear keeping himself alive and flings it at Roosevelt, with Roosevelt resignedly remarking how disappointing it is that things ended up like this, as Brau and all other robots could have lived in Roosevelt's "paradise."
Is Roosevelt a Chessmaster? Manipulative Bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?
A yes to all of the above. Roosevelt masterminds a large part of the plot, and though it's intentionally left ambiguous just how he orchestrates some situations to make him a more terrifying, "could be anywhere" antagonist, he's still stated to be behind it all and we know how he does mastermind several other aspects, so I think there's a good balance.
He manipulates the President of Thracia into being his puppet, and leads him in speeches and making choices for the country which always get praise from the country, and he stays out of any suspicion until Atom somehow finds out his involvement and sends Brau after him. And I don't just say "somehow", it literally isn't given an explicit answer as to how Atom realized the truth, so you can't really fault Roosevelt there
Finally, he's only beaten because Atom is able to redeem Pluto and use him to stop Bora and sic Brau on Roosevelt, otherwise Roosevelt's plan was going off without a hitch.
Is Roosevelt charming? How much of a bastard is he? Does he have any traits worthy of respect?
Despite being.....y'know, a teddy bear, Roosevelt is possessed of a surprisingly lively personality. He often uses dramatic pauses or long, drawn out words to humorous effect, and has a very casual attitude about his plans (Such as when the President confronts him over his scheme, and Roosevelt says "Oh, you found out. That weather robot is freaking out too much about it all though, yes almost all living things will die, but robots will live on. And it's alright, about a tenth of the human population will last. I'll let you have them, Mr. President."), and even his final moments are spent merely exasperatedly proclaiming that it's a disappointment things didn't turn out how he wanted them to.
As for bastardry....Roosevelt is indeed a CM, and he does earn it. He orchestrates a massive war that results in the deaths of countless robots and humans, including children, he fully endorses and assists Abullah in killing a variety of scientists and many of the world's strongest robots (many of whom are now peaceful beings), and his master plan is the death of 90% of humanity and for robots to reign supreme.
Even still, this is all pretty "basic" villainy, and Roosevelt never dips into personally despicable atrocities, just masterminding wars and manipulating others. Despite being the Big Bad, he's very restrained in his evil, with other villains getting the more "in your face" crimes to them, such as a minor antagonist who is a Serial Killer of robot children.
Final Verdict?
I'd say Keep him. Roosevelt may be a CM, but he stays well out of the "too much of a bastard" territory, he has a surprising amount of character despite being confined to a damn unmoving teddy bear, and his plans and schemes are highly focused on, even if the exact way he pulls off some of them is left up to interpretation.
Edited by Ravok on Jul 7th 2019 at 8:32:09 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Dr. Roosevelt.
Now, as promised, I've made the Effort Post for Rosemary Applefield of Ashita no Nadja.
Who Is She and What Does She Do? - Rosemary Applefield is a 13 year old orphan girl from the Applefield Orphanage, the same orphanage that Nadja Preminger hails from. During their days in the orphanage, Nadja and Rosemary got along well and would often play pretend with Rosemary being a princess and Nadja being her faithful knight. Living in poor conditions, Rosemary always dreamt of one day fulfilling a Cinderella fairy tale and living the life of a princess, often in early mornings greeting her own reflection in the mirror as "Princess Rosemary" as she imagines heself as a princess when she's older. It reaches the point where she believes she secretly is a princess and that just hasn't been discovered by others yet, but once a prince comes to sweep her off her feet, she may finally have the princess status and life she feels she's deserving of.
When we first meet her in the series, she's been adopted into the estate of a wealthy family of aristocrats and is serving them as a maid. She happens to see one of Nadja's dance performances when the Dandelion Troupe is performing in her town in Spain, as she greets Nadja as a loving friend. The two girls greatest difference is that Nadja has many fond memories of her old life at Applefield's whereas Rosemary can only recall her memories of time spent with Nadja being positive while everything else was miserable, with the implication that Rosemary had once contemplated running away but Nadja's friendship and promises to her where what kept her there, enduring the misery of living like a poor orphan waiting for a princess life that never seemed to come. As such, while Nadja is a positive optimist and idealist, Rosemary became more jaded and cynical but kept it underneath her own sunny facade. It's said by other maids that when she first came to the estate, she was always crying, but her work has toughened her up and she keeps an optimistic focus on her dreams in order to get through the days, always telling herself that a prince is coming for her and often singing to herself like a Disney Princess. She even starts hoping that the estate's young master Fernando might fall in love with her, even though he treats her poorly. However, during Fernando's birthday celebration, when she sees Nadja dressed up all princess-like and Fernando bowing to her and kissing her hand, she gets the wrong idea and believes that Nadja betrayed her and is out to steal her princess life for herself. She tries to look at her own "Princess Rosemary" reflection again but it vanishes from the mirror, leading to Rosemary having a mental breakdown where she believes all of her dreams and her fantasy of being a princess are getting laughed at and mocked, even by Nadja herself. Rosemary calls Nadja a traitor and shatters the mirror, going delirious while internally swearing vengeance.
We next see Rosemary when Rosso and Blanco, the henchmen of the story's at that point unseen Big Bad Herman Preminger (Nadja's Evil Uncle), arrive at the Gonzales estate and ask Rosemary about Nadja, revealing by mistake that Nadja is the daughter of an aristocrat and is heiress to the Preminger family, which devastates Rosemary since that would make Nadja closer to a real princess than she ever could be. Right on the spot, Rosemary decides she will accompany these men because she could be of use to their boss' plans..and those plans could be of use to her goals. We see what her contribution is in a later episode, where we finally see Herman as he presents Rosemary to his father, Duke Preminger, claiming that Rosemary is the long lost Nadja Preminger, with Rosemary even dressed up in an Applefield orphange dress (which we learn was her idea in order to make her act more authentic), and she has Nadja's stolen brooch with the family ring hidden in it as proof of her identity. Duke Preminger doesn't trust that a girl who was raised in an orphanage is ready for life as a true Preminger, so he opts to keep her a secret for the time being, so Rosemary is made to stay at Herman's manor and take ettiquate lessons for how to have the manners of a proper noble, which she quickly excels at due to years of practice acting like a princess in her private fantasies.
After the Preminger brooch is stolen back by Keith Harcourt, AKA the Black Rose phantom thief, Herman gets questioned about the missing brooch by journalists who were working on a story that Nadja commissioned that would tell of how Rosso and Blanco stole it from her, with Herman mistakenly believing they're referring to it being stolen back from him. Rosemary is in the carriage with him and on the fly, she admits that the Black Rose thief was the true mastermind behind the stealing of the brooch, that she is Nadja and that she really wants it retrieved, even crying Crocodile Tears into Herman's lap to make the act convincing, something Herman himself is amazed by. The journalists take pictures of this moment and their article is made implicating the Black Rose thief, much to Rosemary and Herman's pleasure. The following night, Rosemary attends a ball where she'll be introduced to the members of high society as Duke Preminger's granddaughter. Rosemary is thrilled to finally be treated like a real princess as she introduces herself as Nadja to others, but then she sees the real Nadja, wearing the brooch, at the party undercover in her mother's old dress. But rather than panic, Rosemary agrees to go with Nadja to a private room and then proceeds to pull a Wounded Gazelle Gambit where she lies that she'd been kicked out of the Gonzales estate and that Herman only forced her into this act after having pretended to be kind to her. She then pretends that she's going to go tell everyone the truth and expose Herman's scheme, only to then "accidentally" trip on a flower vase that spills water onto Nadja's dress, and then hurriedly convinces Nadja to let her have the dress for drying it off while Nadja goes to change into something else. Rosemary has a chance to steal the brooch back but isn't able to by the time Nadja's gotten changed, but she's still able to take Nadja's dress to her quarters, where she proceeds to rip into it with diabolical glee before tearing it up, article by article, and throwing it out the window where Nadja happens to be outside. After calling herself Nadja Preminger, Rosemary gloats to the actual Nadja and imparts on her the lesson she'd learned: that "even if you're nice and pretty and liked by everyone, it's not enough for you to live happily!" and then tells her "Goodbye, someone from somewhere", giggling maniacally as she walks off, leaving Nadja to despair over her mother's dress having been utterly ruined.
Herman asks Rosemary why she didn't steal back the brooch, and Rosemary answers that she feels Nadja will receive more trouble if she hangs onto it. When she then states it's good she got rid of Colette's old dress and is asked by Herman why she did that rather than keep it as further evidence that she's Nadja, Rosemary responds that if she'd started wearing that dress that she clearly had not worn beforehand, it would raise Duke Preminger's skepticism and risk him realizing that she's a fraud. As she puts it "Uncle Herman, you'll always lose because you are too greedy", showing that she's put more thought into these matters than Herman himself. The next day, Herman takes Rosemary to see his sister, Nadja's mother Colette, and presents her as her long lost daughter Nadja. Rosemary again shows her impeccable acting abilities, crying upon being "reunited" with "her" mother. After giving Rosemary precious jewels as belated birthday gifts, Colette takes her out for a walk in the garden with her. When Nadja appears outside the gates crying out for her mother, Rosemary notices and then, with a smirk on her face, deliberately gives Colette a hug right where Nadja can see in order to hurt her. After Colette has left, Rosemary approaches Nadja, who's still clinging to the bars of the gate, and taunts her with a particularly good snarky line ("Oh, look. It's a monkey I've never seen before! Oh wait, or is that one of the tricks they taught you as a traveling performer?") She tells Nadja that she's asserting herself as the real Nadja Preminger and that a girl from the orphanage has no use making complaints against her over it. Upon recalling the games they used to play, Rosemary offers that Nadja kiss her hand like the loyal knight to her princess that she'd always pretended to be. Nadja instead grabs Rosemary's hand and begs her to stop doing these things, which gives Rosemary pause before she remarks that Nadja truly is an innocent girl. Seeing police coming outside, Rosemary takes advantage of how Nadja is grabbing her hand and pretends that she's being assaulted, also claiming that Nadja is wearing the stolen brooch that is rightfully her's. As Nadja is pursued by the law, Rosemary bids her a mocking and (she hopes) final goodbye.
In following days, Rosemary is bonding with Colette and Aunt Hilda, at one point being moved to tears at the kindness she's being shown. Amazingly, she seizes her moment of tears as a moment to put on another act and make lies up about how she was treated cruelly and beaten by teachers back at Applefield's, painting it in a bad light to Colette as a failsafe in case Applefield's ends up becoming a problem later on and threatens to expose her as a fake, and it would just so happen that Nadja was indeed seeking out to get aid from the chairmistress of Applefield's at that time, proving Rosemary's instinct correct. Once back inside the manor, Herman wishes to speak with Rosemary about plans, but Rosemary is having none of it as she tells Herman that someone like him who was disinherted by his father has no place bossing around the heiress to the Preminger family and it's fortune, which she insists she is. Herman is visibly frightened of Rosemary at this point but, being the Smug Snake he is, tries to tell himself that she's a weak girl in a gilded cage who will be of no burden to him and his schemes. Later on, Rosemary overhears Duke Preminger being told that Francis Harcourt is coming to the manor and bringing with him a girl claiming to be the real Nadja. Rather than freak out over this, Rosemary smirks and thinks in amusement that Nadja's bad at giving up, but she'll welcome her arrival because she'll enjoy being challenged and feels confident in her chances of winning.
When Nadja arrives, Rosemary attempts to make everyone think that Nadja is the girl named Rosemary whereas she is the real Nadja. Throughout the meeting with Duke Preminger, Rosemary plays it cool and only acts emotional when she feels the situation would call for her to be emotional, whereas Nadja comes off as emotionally unstable in comparison, stacking things in Rosemary's favor. She's caught off her guard twice, but both times manages a saving throw: first is when Nadja presents her mother's diary and a fixed up version of her mother's dress. Rosemary fakes being tearful and recounts that "Rosemary" had stolen her brooch and the trunk that continued the dress and diary back during the orphanage fire. When Nadja claims that life at Applefield's was good to her and Rosemary, Rosemary's face almost gives away that she knows this to be true, but she insists to Nadja that just her sad imagination lying to her, for in reality life at that place was miserable and the people there were cruel. Then when Nadja brings up that the chairmistress has died, Rosemary is very clearly genuinely upset to hear it yet is still able to lie her way through her sorrow and say that she feels sad even for a person "as cruel" as the chairmistress was. She even manages to make Herman look good by saying that he'd hired Rosso and Blanco, who are actually detectives, to retrieve the family brooch that was stolen by "Rosemary." The meeting gets settled when the police arrive thanks to Herman having called them there, as Herman mistakenly believes that Francis, rather than his twin brother Keith, is the Black Rose. In order to protect his brother's identity, Francis admits to being the Black Rose and is arrested, and Nadja, being an accomplice, is apprehend as well. Herman takes credit for exposing both the Black Rose and the fake Nadja, but Rosemary shuts him up with a mini “The Reason You Suck” Speech regarding his greed and, as she's given the brooch by Duke Preminger, asks that the Duke see about getting "Rosemary" some help since she is a childhood friend. That episode ends with Rosemary out in the courtyard, smirking triumphantly and laughing her ass off due to the thought that she has truly won.
Later on, Herman finds himself in debt and tries to order Rosemary to use her false status as Duke Preminger's granddaughter to get money for him, but Rosemary refuses, making it clear that their alliance was only workable when she was able to benefit from the schemes Herman was pulling and now that she's gotten everything she wanted, she's under no obligation to aid him any further. After Herman has been defeated and arrested and his conspiracy exposed, Nadja returns to the mansion and confronts Rosemary, slapping her in the face for her actions against her. Rosemary admits to Nadja that while Nadja has stayed that same as she was when they were growing up together, Rosemary's changed and has come to understand that you never get anywhere by just having dreams - you need to reach out your hand and grasp for yourself the things your heart desires to have. But she also admits that taking what belongs to someone else is wrong, and she's come to realize she was wrong to take Nadja's life from her. She says that she finds nobles to be boring and unpleasant, so life as a noble among other nobles is not the princess life she wants to live, so she intends on leaving the life of nobility behind in pursuit of her own ideal princess life that she could build with her own hands rather than stealing from another. As she's leaving the manor so that she'll be long gone before security can come and chase her out, Rosemary sincerely apologizes for stealing her mother away from her, remarking that Colette is the one noble that she liked and found to be a wonderful person, telling Nadja to treasure her before departing, wishing "Princess Nadja" well, and Nadja does the same to her, addressing her as "Princess Rosemary." And that's it for her. Thus in the end, Rosemary got off with only a slap on the wrist...or literally, in the face.
Is She Charming, Charismatic, and Good on Her Feet? - Rosemary repeatedly shows herself to be immensely charming, being able to appear like a perfectly lovely, sweet, friendly, and well mannered young lady to others around her, having had years of practice by make believing she was a real princess. And a lot of this charm is not entirely superficial, as Rosemary is able to keep a good composure and sense of class and elegance about herself even in her private moments or even when she's being cruel. Whenever she shows her evil face to Nadja, does Evil Gloating or taunts her, she never gets too up in her face about it - this is far from the bullying Smug Snake antagonists of Candy♡Candy here. Rosemary sincerely believes she's meant to be a princess and that she's the heroine in her own life's narrative, with Nadja as a traitorous wretch who deserves to be put in her place and removed as an obstacle to Rosemary's own happiness.
And thinking good on her feet? Keep in mind that Rosemary is a 13 year old girl. So her quick thinking, scheming, Machiavellian machinations and ability to come up with ploys and manipulation tactics on the fly in any given situation is quite frankly unbelievable and insanely impressive. On many occasions she shows herself capable of both short term and long term thinking in order to maneuver her way around social interactions and play on the thoughts, emotions, and assumptions of others so that they do what she wants them to do and she ends up benefiting from their decisions. When presenting herself as Nadja, she thought to wear her old orphanage attire in order to be convincing. Reporters asking about the missing family brooch? Rosemary cries fake tears as she implicates the Black Rose in it's theft, ensuring the news article follows suit. Nadja shows up at the party she's at, even wearing a dress that belonged to Nadja's mother? Rosemary plays the victim to her old friend and deceives her into giving her the dress, which she proceeds to tear up so that it won't be a hindrance that could expose her as a fraud. Nadja comes to the mansion gate to call out to her mother? Rosemary confronts Nadja personally to agitate her 'til she grabs her arm, then makes out that she's being attacked to the police that come by and that Nadja's a thief. Nadja might seek help from Applefield orphanage? Rosemary vilifies the orphanage and it's staff to Colette and the other nobles so that they'd be distrustful of anyone from Applefield. Hears Nadja is coming back to prove that she's legit? Rosemary welcomes it, knowing that Nadja's emotional state will diminish her credibility when compared to Rosemary's cool-headedness and calculated shows of pseudo sincerity, innocence and grace. Gets caught off guard by news of the orphanage chairmistress' death? She continues lying about her having been a cruel woman even through her sadness. Nadja makes convincing claims? Rosemary continues to maneuver her way through the debate via equally convincing statements and seemingly honest, heartfelt narratives. Herman asks for her aid to help him out of debt? Rosemary tells the bastard to piss off, as she IS Nadja Preminger now and is under no obligation to help a rube like him anymore. The jig is up, Nadja is mad when confronting her, and security could come for her to chase her out of the manor? Rosemary proves to be one hell of a Graceful Loser, willingly stepping out of the manor to go seek a more fulfilling life for herself to make by her own hand and imparting some inspiring words and lessons to Nadja on her way out.
Also, aside from her initial breakdown upon seeing Nadja acting like a princess? She never really loses her cool or has any meltdowns (something Herman, by contrast, is very prone to). Not once. Heck, she isn't even technically defeated by the time her plot is over. She'd pretty much already won after episode 46 but ended up changing her mind about the life she'd stolen and so she calmly surrenders it back to Nadja once it comes time to.
Too much of a Bastard? - Surprisingly not. While her partaking in Herman's scheme and the ways she sought to emotionally hurt Nadja for a perceived slight against her were undeniably awful, her worst and most petty acts were the dress ripping bit and calling the cops on Nadja when she was seeking her mother. Rosemary is otherwise fairly Affably Evil despite her ruthlessness and despicable scheming ways, and she shows redeemable qualities on many occasions. She is genuinely nice to Aunt Hilda and Colette, the latter being someone she admits she genuinely did come to like despite having to lie to her and manipulate her feelings for her daughter. She thinks and admits to herself many times that she feels pity for Nadja, first when she still sees her as a friend but feels she won't ever find her mother no matter how hard she looks, and then even when she's acting against her, she feels it's regrettable that Nadja is still such an innocent girl (compared to her, who lost her innocence) but has to be put through a lot of trauma. She gets some notable Even Evil Has Standards moments against Herman, calling out his ceaseless avarice and thinking him a despicably unscrupulous and petty little man for scheming against his own family. Her most notable Pet the Dog moments are in episode 46 - she has a brief flash of remorse across her face when Nadja reminds her of their old friendship and how good they were treated at Applefield's, and then is genuinely saddened to hear of the chairmistress' death, though she still doesn't let it deter her from her deceptions.
More notably, Rosemary displays a remarkable sense of self-awareness and a belief in the golden rule of "treat others as you would want to be treated" - when she's describing Nadja as "Rosemary", a troubled girl who liked to entertain and fantasize, sometimes confusing fantasy for reality, she's describing herself but putting it all on Nadja. When she raises the possibility that "Rosemary" herself might have set the orphanage fire, she then admits that as bad a girl as "Rosemary" is, even she would never do something so cruel and horrible, and states she's willing to forgive her for her transgressions against her. Then after Nadja is arrested and Herman calls her a criminal, Rosemary tells him to shove it and asks Duke Preminger to look into getting help for "Rosemary" 'cause "though she's a bad girl, she's still a dear old classmate of mine". She wants Nadja to be helped after all this because if the girls' positions were reversed, that's what she'd want Nadja to do for her. A talk with Colette in the next episode shows more of Rosemary's self awareness of her own fall to the dark side with her saying that "Rosemary" must have become desperate for a better life when she learned that she, "Nadja", was of noble birth rather than her, and that she is to be pitied for it (this, of course, all describes herself, and she's well aware of it.) Heck, even when ripping up Nadja's mother's dress, her words to Nadja carried about a cruel way of teaching her something - that no matter how sweet, pretty, and well loved by others you are, you won't end up happy if you rely on that alone rather than actually put in an active effort to seize happiness and fortune for yourself.
But the kicker to both this and the above point about her charisma and smarts would be her exit. Rosemary pulls a Karma Houdini by being a Graceful Loser and having had a Heel Realization that the life she was living in Nadja's place was not the ideal princess life she'd wanted after all. She admits her actions were wrong, allows Nadja to take her life back, and leaves the manor with her head held high. And Nadja allows this, even giving Rosemary her respect by referring to her as "Princess Rosemary." In another story, this could come off badly - this could have been like Master Xehanort handing over the X-Blade to Sora and going "Well done. You're worthy of being the Worlds' champion after all. Guess I'll go die now, bye" in how jarring and unsatisfactory it is. But with Rosemary, given her established characterization, desires, and her outlook on the world as it was being shaped? It really fits her and feels natural for how she'd choose to end things. Not only this, but Rosemary's words to Nadja about how the life of a noble is boring and unpleasant, and that an ideal happy life is one you grasp for yourself through your own labors and efforts rather than one you're given due to noble blood and inheritance, actually end up informing Nadja's decision to reject Duke Preminger's plans and expectations for her in the final episode, where she leaves the mansion and heads back out with her friends in the Dandelion Troupe. Rosemary's words had so much conviction and so influential on Najda that she took them to heart and it effected the ending of the entire series' story. When that can be said of you, you know you're someone magnificent.
Competition? - Hmmmm... the actual "mastermind" behind much of the plot, Herman Preminger? A classic Smug Snake with a foul temper and unattractive design who whips a young boy in the back repeatedly, calls the police on that boy's brother and has him thrown in jail, locks up a young girl and his own two henchmen in a prison cell later, threatens to strike a woman when he's mad at her, and tries to murder the young heroine with a gun at the big climax? Hahahahahahaa, yeah. No competition here, Rosemary is in a class of her own.
Verdict? -
She's an easy keep. Not since Princess Azula have I seen an evil genius so young yet who pulls it off with such elegance and style.
Edited by ANewMan on Jul 7th 2019 at 9:40:24 AM
According to YMMV.Ashita No Nadja Rosemary was so popular she won a real-life popularity contest over Nadja.
for Rosemary!
Edited by lalalei2001 on Jul 7th 2019 at 9:58:36 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.Sure to Roosevelt.
As for Rosemary... Its been a while since I watched Ashita no Nadja so I could do a second rewatch again if Rosemary truly qualifies if my memory serves me right... But even then, I'll say yes for now and thanks for bringing her @A New Man
Here's a present for y'all... Thank you Scraggs for the songs
![]()
![]()
More exactly it was a Moe contest, but that Rosemary ended up with more votes than the heroine, from many people who had to know full well she was a villain, really speaks volumes about her charm. Even when being a cruel and devious bitch, she manages to be endearing and adorable!
I rewatched her episodes for the EP myself. She's damn impressive in her evildoing and has got a great deal of style and class, being more than just some petty and mean For the Evulz type of antagonist, that's for certain.
Edited by ANewMan on Jul 7th 2019 at 10:35:13 AM
Have another potential from the Legacy of Kain series, largely from the first game, Blood Omen...the Necromancer, Mortanius.
What's the work?
Legacy of Kain is an epic Dark Fantasy saga set in the realm of Nosgoth, which is governed by the Nine Pillars of Balance, each with its own guardian...originally, these were vampires, but a lot of wars later, they pass to human control, also holding back the monstrous race known as the Hylden. The new scion of Balance, the man destined to inherit that pillar, is a man named Kain, a petty noble who is set upon by brigands and murdered one night, restored to life as a vampire and promised retribution by the necromancer Mortanius...who is leaving some pertinent details out. ...
Who is Mortanius?
originally, the vampires were mortal, servants of an invisible god who directed them to war against the immortal Hylden as creatures who perverted the natural order. A long, LONG centuries-spanning conflict followed and the Hylden were banished, spitefully cursing the vampires with immortality and a thirst for blood in turn before their defeat, and many vampires killed themselves in despair when their god turned his sight from them. Realizing the importance of keeping the pillars, the remaining vampire began to raise human guardians as stewardship passed to them, raising and eventually turning them into vampires themselves, the 'Dark Gift.'
Mortanius and Moebius were two men born to be scions of Death and Time respectively. Taken from their families, raised by the vampires....instead? They rebelled. The vampires were all but wiped out in their ensuing crusade, Moebius and Mortanius forming a new Circle of Nine while Moebius formed the Sarafan crusaders under one Guardian named Malak, purging the vampires completely...when the ancient vampire Janos Audron was killed, his progeny Vorador slaughtered all but three of the Circle in revenge, prompting Mortanius to bind Malak's soul to his armor to ensure he never, ever failed again, and as punishment.
However, Mortanius was possessed by the leader of the Hylden and eventually used to murder the Scion of balance, Ariel, prompting her lover Nupraptor, guardian of the mind, to corrupt the other Guardians, corrupting the Pillars...struggling against his possessor and Nupraptor's inflicted madness, Mortanius slowly began to realize the truth of everything and set a plan in motion that would change the very fate of the world entire...he found the new scion of balance, Kain, a petty noble, and paid a group of brigands to murder him. Relying upon Kain's hunger for vengeance, Mortanius offered him a devil's bargain, using the heart of Janos Audron to revive Kain with a promise he would have the blood he hungered for...he had Kain kill the bandits who murdered him, but then revealed someone upon the Circle of Nine had been the true culprit, concealing his own involvement from Kain....throughout the game, Mortanius guides Kain to eliminate the circle one by one, first Nupraptor and then others.
In the meantime, Mortanius keeps a day job of being forced to lead a demon worshiping cult, where he eventually encounters the time traveling vampire, revealing his intent to restore the Pillars to vampire guardianship and correct his great mistake of his old rebellion, while struggling against the monster inside him. When Kain returns, Mortanius faces off with him, having guided him there, where Kain learns Mortanius is one of the Pillars as Mortanius personally dispatches one of the final members....Kain tells Mortanius he cannot escape his fate, prompting Mortanius to respond "Nay, I will embrace it!" Upon being defeated, Mortanius succumbs to full possession by the Unspoken, who is defeated by Kain as well....Kain makes a choice not to sacrifice his own life, seemingly damning the pillars and Nosgoth, but, though not revealed for thousands of years, provides a plan for the eventual salvation of the world through Kain himself.
....just as Mortanius had intended.
How's he operate?
Pretty smoothly, for a guy continuously possessed by the Dark Entity and used as a meat puppet at times Mortanius is the one who creates Kain and sets in mind everything through the series. Now, he is missing a few key points of information, but considering how well he fights against the demon inside him (granted, the Unspoken does make a few 'Just As Planned' moments through this, albeit in ways Mortanius could not possibly have known about), Mortanius's ultimate plan is to trust Kain to restore balance. Admittedly, Kain establishes a vampire dictatorship for like two thousand years, but he does get around to it, and ends up proving himself the savior of the world.
Still, Mortanius ends up leading Kain by the nose for the vast majority of Blood Omen, dealing with the Circle and his vampire 'child' throughout. He's also played by Tony Jay who lends him an exceptional charisma and gravitas in Blood Omen. I'd sya pass.
Bastard? Too much?
Even discounting the demonic possession, Mortanius is not really a nice person. For failing the Circle, he yanks Malak's soul out and binds it to his armor (Malak kind of deserves it, but this is still a brutal punishment) , and his method of crafting the scion of balance is to have Kain murdered, turned into an undead vampire and set him upon a lot of people to wipe out the Circle, all while running a sacrificial cult on the side to placate the Unspoken.
Granted, unlike Moebius, Mortanius is not a vampire murdering psychopath. He did realize, eventually, that they were wrong to betray and destroy the vampires, having just considered them an undead plague, until he realized the Pillars were made to hold back the Hylden. Mortanius's ultimate goal is to restore balance to the world and save it, while not serving the depraved Elder God like Moebius does. He also seems to have genuine affection for Kain and isn't afraid to die in pursuit of balance either.
Conclusion?
I'd pass him.
