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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#10851: Jul 3rd 2019 at 10:06:33 PM

I've decided to do Omar.

What's the work?

The Wire is a show about the city of Baltimore. Posing as a police procedural but ulimately interested in all aspects of the city, there are many Cunning characters throughout the show. However none stand out as much as—Omar.

'Who is He? Omar is a stick-up man. He robs drug dealers for a living. We first meet omar when he is watching a stash house. He waits until most of the guard is gone then ambushes them with his crew. Avon Barksdale the Drug kingpin who owns the stash house immediately puts out a hit on him. His crewmember Bailey is killed, and later his lover Brandon is tortured and mutilated. He agrees to help the police and gives them information on one of the Torturers by the street name of Bird who he labels as the Killer of a security guard. Later when two of the torturers Wee-Bey and Stinkum are trying to take a corner, he ambushes them killing Stinkum and wounding Wee-Bey. The police call him in but they can't pin him and since they need him as a witness in Birds trial they ask him to hang back. He looks over the investigative board and finds out the Strip club where Avon conducts operations. Stealing some drugs from a stash house and then selling them to one of Avons Rivals named Prop Joe, Omar gets Avons pager so he can trick him into coming out. He proceeds to do this but by chance Wee-Bey comes and engages Omar in a gunfight. Omar is wounded and forced to retreat. He calls on the police for help. They chide him for not hanging back, but agree to help him. Avon after nearly getting shot takes his number-two (Named Stringer)'s advice and decides to fake calling a truce and then kill Omar when his guard is down. Omar hearing of the truce agrees to wear a wire and heads to a preliminary meeting in downtown baltimore. While at the preliminary meeting, Omar asks for a retirement package, and when stringer grants it, Omar senses a trap and instead flees to New York.

In season two he returns to Baltimore with a new lover Dante. They witness two woman Kimmy and Tosha rob the dealers they were planning on robbing. They in turn rob Kimmy and Tosha and then Omar asks them to join his crew. They accept and a new crew is formed. Mcnulty one of the detectives in the Bird case, is trying to find Omar and asks one of his informants(named Bubbles) to find him. Kimmy overhears Bubbles looking for Omar and Omar sets a trap for Bubbles and his friend by leaving out a radiator in the middle of the road that they try to sell for scrap metal. Having found Omar, Mcnulty tries to make him presentable for the trial. When the trial comes Omar charms the jury by being absolutely unabashed who he is and when the defense attorney tries to discredit him by calling him a parasite, Omar points out the attorney is just as parasitic he just uses a briefcase instead of a shotgun. Bird is convicted and while the series makes absolutely clear that Bird is guilty when Mcnulty asks if Omar really witnessed the killing, Omar just says "you really asking?" Omar also gets a get out of jail free card for his troubles. Later in the season Stringer is having a shadow power struggle with Avon and decides to use Omar as tool against Avons main muscle Brother Mouzone, since he cannot move against Avon directly. Meeting with Omar, Stringer insinuates that Mouzone was the one who actually killed Brandon, he Wee-bey, Stinkum, and Bird were just there. Omar tracks Mouzone to a motel, and after figuring out the secret knock, knocks out the guard and ambushes Mouzone in his hotel room. However after talking with Mouzone for a minute he realizes the man is innocent and calls an ambulance for him. He refocuses his killing intent back on Stringer with a vengeance.

In season three as a result of this he is hitting Barksdale stash houses hard. The stash houses are getting more heavily guarded because of this and in one raid he ends up biting off more than he can chew and gets into a gunfight with the stash house. This results in Tosha dying when Dante doesn't look where he is shooting. Omar grief-stricken admits it was his fault and decides to cut back on vengeance. Later when a witness tells Bunk (a police detective) what happened, Omar convinces him to change his story. Bunk later chides Omar saying that he kills people and that children in the neighborhood look up to him. This touches Omars conscience and he decides to locate a lost officers gun that Bunk has been charged with finding. As the season goes on Omar is doing relatively well for himself and his crew, but the Barksdales can't let a grudge go, and two Barksdale Soldiers ambush him and his grandma while he is taking her to church on Sunday (Which in the world of The Wire is an unofficial truce day). Enraged Omar decides to refocus on vengeance, but Kimmy decides that that is too much and leaves the crew. Omar lets her go with no hard feelings and even tells Dante that this is something he has to do alone. Mouzone returns to town looking for Omar. Dante finds out about this but when he tries to confront Mouzones man, Mouzone ambushes Dante and later tortures Omars location out of him. Having a Mexican Standoff with Omar, he reveals he wants to ask for his help in taking down Stringer. Mouzone gets the information he needs from Avon, and then he and Omar ambush Stringer at His condo developments. Mouzone releases Dante from captivity and tells leaves Omar to dispose of the weapons. The Barksdale Organization collapses shortly thereafter.

In season four Omar finds himself a bit adrift. One morning he goes out in a bright blue bathrobe, to get some cheerios and terrified dealers just give him drugs. When he comes back to the house he is staying at he says to his new boyfriend Renaldo "I don't even want this." As he tells Renaldo "How do you expect to run with the wolves come night, when you spend all day sparring with the puppies?" He then decides to rob Old face Andres who is under the employ of the New Westside Kingpin Marlo. While robbing Andre, he pays for cigarettes and then insists on his change. Prop Joe is trying to get Marlo to join his co-op of drug kingpins but Marlo is uninterested. Prop joe then sets Omar on him by letting Omar know about and underground poker game that Marlo attends and claims to Marlo that if he had been part of the co-op he would have known about it beforehand. Marlo enraged by this, has Omar framed for killing a delivery lady at Andres store and also puts a bounty on Omars head. Omar is then sent to prison, but his bank and Father figure Butchie, send muscle to help Omar out. Omar has them shield him with rudimentary book armor, and when somebody tries to collect on the bounty by stabbing him, he turns it around and stabs them in the ass. He then calls Bunk looking to cash in on his get out of jail free card. Bunk points out that the card was only for low-level felonies not murder. When Omar points out that he doesn't hurt civilians, Bunk still says that he is guilty of other murders. Omar tells him that if Bunk leaves him in here, he will die. He then points out that if he is innocent of this murder, someone out there is guilty of it and getting away scot-free telling him that a man got to have a code. Bunk then convinces a prosecutor to let him get transferred to a lower security prison and eventually he and a fellow detective clear Omar of the murder. While walking Omar out of prison he asks him to stop killing people and Omar promises not to. Omar and Renaldo then go back to Andres place to stake it out reasoning that threatening him is fair game. When they realize he is not there they go to a public square that they know Marlo frequents and Omar recognizes him from the poker game. While watching the square they spot Slim Charles, who was a soldier on the side of the Barksdale Organization. They then tail him back to Prop Joes place. They then in turn tail Joe to his new day co-op meeting and sees Marlo and other kingpins there. Omar than ambushes Joe at his place of work and then blackmails Joe with the threat of telling Marlo that it was he who set Omar on Marlo. He then asks for a lead on a shipment of Marlos. Joe agrees but after the agreement Omar tails one of Joes lieutenant his nephew by the name of Cheese. Omar then gets a team together including Kimmy, and when Joe calls him for the robbery Omar ignores it and follows Cheese instead. He comes across cheese getting the delivery for the whole co-op(as opposed to just marlo) and robs the whole truck. He then comes back to Joes shop and sells it back to him making a huge profit in the process. He splits it with his crew and announces his retirement to Butchie. Though the season ends on a high-note for him butchie himself states "This ain't over".

Season five sees Omar in Puerto Rico with Renaldo, enjoying retirement. Marlo is not happy about this so after learning Butchie's location, he has his two top enforces, Chris and Snoop, torture Butchie for information. Butchie refuses to give Omar up, so they kill him making sure word of it will reach Omar. Omar then returns to baltimore with revenge on his mind. He goes after Slim first, but when Slim makes it clear Joe had nothing to do with it, Omar spares him. When he learns Marlo has gone into hiding he goes after one of Stanfields lieutenants by the name of Monk. However it is a trap. He is outgunned with his ally shot dead he jumps from a three story window. When Marlo's muscle look down on the ground they don't see him. Omar had actually hidden in the same building. Fashioning himself a makeshift crutch he then goes on a warpath against Marlos organization, stealing Marlos drugs and money but then disposing of it or burning it rather than use it. He continuously calls out Marlo to face him but his taunts don't reach him. He later kills Savino (a former Barksdale soldier who now works for Marlo) breaking his promise to Bunk. Increasingly falling into despair, Omar still robs Marlos stash houses. Kenard a kid who looked up to Omar, sees him one day on crutches and thinks he's pathetic. While Omar is buying cigarettes he follows him into the store and then shoots him in the head.

Charming? Good Planner? Omar is extremely charming. And very intelligent too. The stand out of his charm is when he testifies in birds trial, outwitting Levy, who might be one of the slimiest people on the show, but is a very good Lawyer. In the first season alone Omar is a great student of Drug dealer behavior telling his boyfriend when they are planning a heist cornered rats always crawl into holes. Sure enough when Omar comes walking down the street the Dealer runs right into the alley straight into his ambush. Omar has a true flair for the dramatic. In one robbery he pretends to be a disabled veteran. While the guards of the stash house pat him down, they don't pat down his nurse, and as a result he robs the place blind. Theres also when he goes and threatens Joe about the whole Marlo business, he asks Joe to fix a clock using it as a prop to say that joe "ran out of time!" When he comes back to sell Joe the heroin that he stole from him, he asks about the clock. When Joe gives it to him good as new, Omar pays him for the fix. So yes. But the thing that defines Omar most is patience and knowledge gathering. When Mcnulty first meets him on the show, Omar reveals he knew Mcnulty and his partner were tailing him and had emptied his truck of guns. He then reveals he knows Bubbles is their snitch. In season four, because he has the patience to wait around, he figures out that Marlo and Prop Joe are involved in a massive city wide criminal conspiracy called the New day Co-op, something that Mcnulty and Freamon, two of the cleverest cops on the show, even with all their resources, never figure out.

Bastard? Too Much? Omar is a killer. Yet he loves his boyfriends, his mentor Butchie, his grandmother. He cares about his crew. He has a code against killing innocent civilians, and is even kind to junkies asking him for a fix (There are pragmatic reasons for that as well; The junkies don't rat him out). He has his own little personal rule about not cussing.

Mitigating Factors? Season five sees him fall into absolute despair. By the end of his last episode he's clearly very upset since no matter how many times he calls out Marlo, Marlo does not seem interested in facing him. And his death is very ignominious. However there was a very good reason that Marlo was not responding. Chris and Snoop had been making sure that word of that did not get back to Marlo. When Marlo finds out what Omar said, he goes ballistic. Later Marlo seems to have won the drug game by retiring to be a legitimate businessman. He is at a business party and it is apparent he could not be more bored. He leaves and then comes across to corner boys arguing about Omars death and how he died, one saying he was gunned down by police, the other saying it was a bunch of New York drug dealers. When he picks a fight with them they have no idea who he is. The subtext of the scene is clear: Omar has become a legend, while Marlo has become a nobody. So Omars gambit worked even if it's not in the way he intended.

Verdict? Ultimately I'm leaning [tup], but I understand if people feel season five is too mitigating.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 4th 2019 at 4:27:54 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#10852: Jul 3rd 2019 at 10:28:23 PM

Leaning [tup] Omar.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#10854: Jul 4th 2019 at 6:28:59 AM

I guess I can say yea to Omar

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#10856: Jul 4th 2019 at 6:31:54 AM

[tup] to Omar

Things are really about to get Fun around here
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10858: Jul 4th 2019 at 7:27:21 AM

I guess I'll say yea for now but I would like to hear Morgan's thoughts before we just let Omar go up. On one hand, I distinctly remember it being brought up that one of the work's key points was that the game was too big for any of the players to control; on the other hand, the comparison being used for The Wire was ASOIAF/GoT, bot versions of which ended up with one MB. I can see it but it's still something I'd like hear a bit more on.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10859: Jul 4th 2019 at 7:56:17 AM

Sure there to omar.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#10860: Jul 4th 2019 at 8:33:54 AM

After replaying Yu-Gi-Oh! The Duelists of the Roses, I think C. Seto Rosenkreuz, commonly known as Seto, qualifies.

What's the work? The Duelists of the Roses is a sequel to Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden Memories, and is an Alternate History retelling of The Wars Of The Roses, where the Lancastrian and Yorkist sides are played by Yu-Gi-Oh characters. The player character, the Rose Duelist, is summoned to this reality to fight in the war. There are two campaigns and corresponding sides to fight for—Yugi's Lancastrians and Seto's Yorkists—and in both of them, Seto plays a major role in accomplishing his own goals, determining both the war's outcome and the player's fate. In both campaigns Seto is a Noble Demon who wants to rule the world, but is more heroic in his own campaign and more villainous in Yugi's.

What does he do? The first scene of the game involves Seto cornering the Lancastrians' druid, Simon, who has just summoned the player to the battlefield with the 8 Red Rose cards. Under Seto's leadership, the Yorkists have a huge battle advantage, and the player was summoned in hopes of turning the tide of the war. Seto, having seen the power the Red Rose cards hold, wishes to unite them with his side's White Rose cards so he can cast the Spell of Doom and summon a Physical God to the realm in hopes of renewing a pact his ancestors made to rule forever more.

Simon reveals that he scattered the cards amongst his followers to prevent them from being stolen, but Seto is unworried and proposes that the Rose Duelist join his side instead. Simon is horrified at the prospect and assumes that the player will side with the Lancastrians without much coercion, but Seto delivers a very compelling argument for joining the Yorkists—while each side has 8 cards and you could theoretically side with either, his side was already winning the war, he knows how to send the player home, and unlike Simon, Seto affirms that the player can make their own choice in deciding who to join.

Should the player join Seto's side, he's pleased, and the campaign from then on follows you, under his leadership, dismantling the Lancastrian war effort and claiming the Red Rose cards. Should the player join Yugi's side and start claiming White Rose cards, he's disappointed but considers you a Worthy Opponent and looks forward to dueling you in the future as you work your way through his forces. Throughout both campaigns the player learns that while King Richard III (Heishin) is the figurehead of the Yorkist army, Seto is the one making all of the tactical decisions, and he is also the one who taught his second-in-command Pegasus (Thomas Stanley) how to duel. By the end of Yugi's campaign, a real-life plot twist occurs and Pegasus betrays the king, handing the crown to Yugi (Henry Tudor). Seto escapes and waits for the player at Stonehenge to duel them. By the end of Seto's campaign, the war goes off without a hitch and the player defeats Yugi, and Seto awaits them at Stonehenge to consummate the ritual.

In Yugi's campaign, the player eventually defeats Seto in a duel and has all 16 Rose Cards. Seto then reveals that he doesn't care who wins the war; the only reason he entered the war at all was for this moment and to get exactly what he wanted—all 16 cards being at Stonehenge and a high-powered duel with the Rose Duelist were needed to complete the ritual, and it didn't even matter who won the card game. When the spirit Manawyddan fab Llyr appears, Seto gloats over his triumph, and offers the Rose Duelist as a sacrifice to the dark god. Manawyddan fab Llyr is not the spirit Seto was hoping to revive (that would be DarkNite from the previous game), but accepts his offer and duels the player in preparation to eat their soul. When the player wins, Seto is dismayed at failing, but escapes, and the Rose Duelist's name is lost to history and they may have not even returned to their own time. While made explicit in Seto's campaign, it's hinted that Seto in Yugi's campaign will continue to search for the Card Guardian and make his dreams of conquest a reality.

In Seto's campaign, he consummates the ritual and offers to share his power with the player, but soon recognizes that Manawyddan fab Llyr isn't the Guardian he's been searching for. The spirit goes on a rampage and plans to devour the world as repayment for his defeated brother, and Seto quickly tells the player what to do to defeat him, as only the Rose Duelist has the power to stop the summoning. When the player succeeds, Seto apologizes for the mess and vows to continue looking for the true Card Guardian. He then honors his deal with the player and returns them to their own time, and additionally gives them a pendant to secure his family's loyalty in the future. Once the player leaves, Seto gives up his position of power to continue searching, acting as a Keystone Army for the entire Yorkist army and ensuring history proceeds as we know it.

Charming? Good planner? Oh yeah. Besides lookin' good in the dragon-head armor, his theme song, polite disposition, and cunning mind make him the highlight of the entire game. He starts the game at an advantage in the war, and upon meeting a Worthy Opponent that could tip the scales, offers a very convincing argument to have them join his side, and isn't bothered if they refuse, as he knows how it can factor into his scheme. Both stories climax with Seto's plan to summon the Card Guardian succeeding, even if it was the wrong one, and he escapes without consequence and/or vows to try again after realizing his mistake. He's also the only thing holding his army together, if the ending of his campaign is to be believed.

Bastard? Too Much? He's definitely more of a villain in Yugi's campaign, but wants to rule the world in both, and despite his military victories he isn't concerned about the outcome of the war so long as he gets what he wants. In his campaign he keeps his promise to the player in sending them home and additionally gives them a pendant as a reward for entering his service, pledging his family's loyalty to the Rose Duelist.

Mitigating factors? Competition? Technically the player is the one doing all the legwork in Seto's campaign, but you're still following his orders to the letter so I don't think it's a major factor. As for competition, while Pegasus successfully ensures Yugi's rise to power, and Yugi thanks the player for helping win the war only to have their name forgotten, neither of them have the screen time, presence, or charisma that Seto does. None of the other characters seriously challenge Seto's intelligence, charisma, or plans.

verdict? A [tup] from me, at least. What do you guys think? ...Also I have no idea how to condense this. XD;

Edited by lalalei2001 on Jul 4th 2019 at 8:53:52 AM

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Loekman3 from Indonesia Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#10861: Jul 4th 2019 at 9:15:05 AM

[tup]To Seto

Edited by Loekman3 on Jul 4th 2019 at 11:15:15 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10862: Jul 4th 2019 at 9:16:05 AM

From the EP I'm leaning with a tentative yeah for now.

Edit: Also, lalalei, don't worry about condensing, unlike with CM where you can pretty well go "Character is X bad + mitigating factors don't count because of Y", there are a few more dimensions to touch on here. Your post reads well and conveys the info, that's the only thing I'm really concerned about, good job!

Edited by 43110 on Jul 4th 2019 at 12:19:44 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10864: Jul 4th 2019 at 9:19:51 AM

[tup]Seto " Screw the Rules, I Have Money! " Kaiba

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10865: Jul 4th 2019 at 9:24:55 AM

Though sadly not for the one who drops acid before having a flashback and thinks his hair is green...

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#10869: Jul 4th 2019 at 1:44:14 PM

Good to see two Setos counting! I'll happily vote him up.

Edited by Klavice on Jul 4th 2019 at 1:44:58 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#10870: Jul 4th 2019 at 7:26:51 PM

Happy 4th of July and Canada Day everyone

Hey guys well tomorrow I'll be going on a cruise ship for a week. Unfortunately they don't have wifi on the ship so I won't have internet to contact you guys until I get to Bermuda, and even the internet there is very limited. If I don't appear on this thread during the week, I wish to say good luck on this thread and I look forward to chat with you all when I return from my cruise.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#10871: Jul 4th 2019 at 10:31:49 PM

People, I found another unproven entry. Here :

I do remember that he qualifies, but I need to buy and re-read the book to be sure (however, if someone else wants to EP him, go for it). Should I cut him on the meanwhile?

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10872: Jul 4th 2019 at 10:35:07 PM

I'm gonna take care of that soon. He's a stunningly easy example

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#10875: Jul 4th 2019 at 11:37:48 PM

Yes to Seto.

@Count: Oh, shame on me for forgetting about the Count of Monte Cristo. Indeed, a stunningly easy example.


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