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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10801: Jun 27th 2019 at 8:38:05 AM

Yea to Picc, but I'm also a preemptive no to Cell.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#10802: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:01:52 AM

@username2527: Didn't say he fully recovered from his breakdown, as he was still notably psychotic upon his return, but that he bounced back more dangerous than ever. True he didn't plan on it, but he knew how to take advantage of it once he found it had happened. (Again, Azula in Smoke and Shadows is a good comparison, as her expressions paint her as being still not all there mentally, but she's still smart enough to seize opportunities to make a comeback).

I guess the real issue with Cell is that he carries the cells of Vegeta, Freeza, etc., and he taps into them way too easily, leading to needless sadism and desires for a challenge that Go Horribly Right, which in turn leads to Villainous Breakdowns that make him look pitiful. Whether that's enough to negate any magnificence he could have is up for debate.

Edited by ANewMan on Jun 27th 2019 at 9:02:41 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#10804: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:05:12 AM

Yea on Piccolo

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#10805: Jun 27th 2019 at 9:06:49 AM

Hilariously, I think Abridged!Cell is closer to an MB than the original even though he doesn't make it either. Mostly because of this song.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#10806: Jun 27th 2019 at 10:02:15 AM

Yes to King Piccolo.

And yeah, Cell doesn't qualify. While his disqualifying factors aren't quite as blatant as Frieza's, he's still needlessly petty, driven entirely by saidism, and breaksdown when things don't go his way. Still love him as a villain though.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jun 27th 2019 at 1:02:39 PM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#10807: Jun 27th 2019 at 1:55:19 PM

I Pickle's breakdown is more to show how Goku is able to beat him rather than to take away his menace and he goes out with dignity so I agree it isn't disqualifying.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#10808: Jun 27th 2019 at 2:22:20 PM

Hey, s k410 still wanna do the MB discussion for X-Men films? If not may I please reserve Sassy Fassy's Magnet-Man?

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#10809: Jun 27th 2019 at 4:43:42 PM

Yes to King Piccolo but no to anyone else from DB and DBZ.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#10810: Jun 27th 2019 at 5:28:28 PM

I'll give King Pickle a yea but a no to anyone else from Dragon Ball.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10811: Jun 28th 2019 at 12:22:32 AM

Anyway Im back.

Was sick with a viral infection but have managed to get that to pass.

Anyways ctaching up.

[tdown]Scheck. Know I remeber what was wrong with this guy. I had a feeling of something being off but couldnt tell what since its been yeras

[tup]L (Yeah I think in hindsight he was an easy keep that just got written off intially)

[tdown]Mello

[tup]King piccolo (The original Knight of Cerebus for Dragon Ball and the badguy whod set the stage for everyone to come while not making any of there stupid mistakes as well.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#10812: Jun 28th 2019 at 1:24:06 AM

Hey guys so starting tomorrow, I'll be going on a trip for 2 weeks at Boston then going on a cruise to Bermuda for 1 week so won't be that active on the thread (both here and the CM thread) but I'll try to contribute with votes and opinions as much as I can

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10813: Jun 28th 2019 at 5:58:39 AM

Anyone wanna take a last few looks at MagnificentBastard.Sonic The Hedgehog?... if we're good I'll get it locked on Sunday.

[down] I probably should have been doing that to all the pages that are getting locked and just forgot [lol]

Edited by 43110 on Jun 28th 2019 at 10:56:45 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10814: Jun 28th 2019 at 6:51:00 AM

Looks good.

Should we add an unmarked spoilers tag to it?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#10815: Jun 28th 2019 at 9:35:02 AM

So when are the new writeups going up?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10816: Jun 28th 2019 at 9:43:59 AM

Sunday.

Same date that the cm entries are usually submitted

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10817: Jun 28th 2019 at 6:27:29 PM

Speaking of which, Man, you did a writeup. Can you put that in the drafts (under my sig) please?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#10818: Jun 29th 2019 at 10:12:53 AM

[up] Yurippe's writeup is already in there, right at the bottom.

Speaking of, I've been reading the Angel Beats prequel manga, Heaven's Door. It's not going to effect anything in the writeup, just mentioning it 'cause damn, it really does do even more to earn Yurippe a spot on this trope. cool

Edited by ANewMan on Jun 29th 2019 at 10:15:21 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
FoxyGrandpa12 Reze x Denji from New Jersey or New York (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Reze x Denji
#10820: Jun 29th 2019 at 2:24:21 PM

Since there are no Kamen Rider examples here I got every Kamen Rider wick in YMMV!

Kamen Rider 555 as two potholes both-related-to-and this:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Masato Kusaka. He's a scheming Jerkass of epic proportions, and the epic proportions are what make him fun to watch. He's a "good guy" version of The Starscream (and the term "good guy" is used very loosely—he's only a "good guy" because he hates the villains only slightly more than he hates the heroes). He's popular in Japan, but the popularity could be the enjoyment of a good bad guy. He really is the series' best villain, and a rare instance of it being shown that not everyone who doesn't want the apocalypse is necessarily a sweetheart in all (or any!) other ways.

Kamen Rider Decade has a pothole in The Scrappy for Tsukasa.

Kamen Rider Dragon Knight has:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Xaviax.
    • And it works really well in one of his last plans. Not only did he capture Earth's version of Len's old mentor, Kamen Rider Wrath, and turn him into little more than a puppet for his own whims, but Xaviax posessed Wrath and used him in open combat against poor Len. And when it looked like Xaviax was finally vented, he stood laughing as Wrath's body was dissolved into the Advent Void, grinning at Len. And then he took Kit's deck, just to rub in how pointless his sacrifice was.

Kamen Rider Ex-Aid has:

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Kuroto Dan definitely counts as this as his intellect and manipulation on the heroic riders ensured his success to his plans.
    • By #23, Parado reaches this status as well by taking Kuroto Dan out of the picture after Kuroto gets de-powered by the Riders. Oh, and those two Bugsters Kuroto needed to finish Kamen Rider Chronicle? He had them all along.
      • This gets cemented when #24 involves him and his Bugster allies successfully completing a hostile takeover of Genm Corp.
      • His magnificence rises even more in #29 where it's revealed he masqueraded as an ally M and the Orange Mighty Brother for all the episodes and let Emu have his greatest victories using him to distract Dan megalomania, and when Emu tries to non-lethally defeat him with his reprogamming him it was All According to Plan, his new human DNA letting him use a Gamer Driver to achieve Perfect Knock Out Gamer Level 99.
    • Masamune Dan/Kamen Rider Cronus turns out to be an even bigger one than his own son and Parado. He takes over Kuroto and Parado's initial plan for Kamen Rider Chronicle for himself once he gets out of jail. As it turns out, he has been using the Riders and Bugsters all along for his own, currently unknown plan. Yes, even Kuroto. When Kuroto thought he was using the Riders as his Unwitting Pawn, as it turns out, he was actually his father's own pawn.

Kamen Rider Ghost has:

  • Magnificent Bastard
    • Chikara Saionji, big time. He spends the first ten episodes manipulating people to activate the Eyecons then works things around just to swipe them out from under everyone's noses in one swoop. Did we mention he did all this with the heroes barely even finding out who he is? He loses some credibility for this by completely failing at his apparent objectives, due to the lack of a Driver making him unable to make a wish and simply getting himself killed or sucked into the Ganma world instead.
    • The Seiryuto Ganma. He barely shows up in his episode because he knows that he can use Takeru to more easily obtain the Benkei Eyecon. It backfires a bit when Takeru uses said Eyecon. It didn't work out the way he'd hoped, but by the end of the episode he's still alive.

Kamen Rider: Hour of the Void has a pothole for Broken Base (this is basically Alternative Character Interpretation but we'll get to that somewhere else):

  • Tatsuya Inoue: Magnificent Bastard whose long-reaching plan came crumbling down when he accidentally made it personal, or Villain Sue whose effectiveness hinged solely on DM Fiat?

Kamen Rider Kuuga: Rising unto the Stars has:

Kamen Rider OOO has (the last one commented out as ZCE):

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Kougami; crazy as he is, makes it abundantly clear that he's in control of the situation in #6, forcing Ankh to accept a crooked deal in order for him and Eiji to use the RideVendors located around the city.
    • Ankh himself isn't too shabby either: In #20, it is revealed that he switched the core medals with cell medals in the case beforehand so that Kazari's apparent victory by stealing it in #19 was foiled.
    • Kazari shows signs of this as well.

Kamen Rider Ryuki has:

Of course, some of them can be "too much of a bastard" given the show's subject matter...

Edit: I just got an idea for a candidate for Star Twinkle Precure but I'll get to that only after two weeks pass after STPC ends.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa12 on Jun 29th 2019 at 5:25:39 AM

"Thing is, I believe that a single good movie will change your entire life." — Makima | aka Fox | he/she/they
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10821: Jun 29th 2019 at 2:27:56 PM

Uh lets see here.

I'd be good with Parado and maybe Kuroto.

Scraggle said he wanted to try for Kougami.

Masato and Asakura are a bit too on the bastard side. Kitokia might count though its been awihle.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#10822: Jun 29th 2019 at 2:51:22 PM

I am really looking forward to Scraggle doing Kougami. I got some keeps myself but I dunno if I'll ever get to them.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#10823: Jun 29th 2019 at 5:19:23 PM

Recently found and deleted these from of of the YMMV page for Yu-Gi-Oh! Arc-V:

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Reiji Akaba, who is behind most of plot involving the heroic side. He has good intentions and is anything but a jerk, but he would go so far as to appear like one to recruit Yuya to his team. Oh, and he suspected Dennis when no-one else did.
    • He gets it from his father, Professor Leo Akaba, whose machinations have been running remarkably smoothly throughout the entire series. He happens to be one of the first people to wrong-foot Reiji too.
    • Dennis Mackfield. Mostly for being a blatant mole who didn't arouse the suspicions of the other Lancers except Kurosaki (including Reiji, or so it seemed) until episode 74. Fans often joke about him being either a professional in averting suspicions or the other characters being too stupid to notice that.
    • Jean Michel Roget, the Security Director. Captures most of the Lancers in a few days, recaptures them easily when they try to escape, played the Council for fools and wrecked their Xanatos Gambit and does an excellent job of playing mind games with Yuya.]] Only slightly decreased by the fact that satisfied with just control over the City, but the sheer competence he generally operates with can be hard not to admire. This fades away after his Villainous Breakdown, revealing him as more of a high-functioning Smug Snake.

From what I know, Reiji/Declan is the one most likely to qualify. Maybe Dennis too if he was smart and charming enough. But Leo Akaba was apparently something of an insane, imbecilic villain with terribly thought-through plans in the third season, and Roegt belongs nowhere near this trope since the entry even acknowledges him as a blatant Smug Snake on top of being a despicable Complete Monster.

Also found this on Yu-Gi-Oh! Zexal:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Vector. He's been behind most of the plot from the show's beginning, but Zexal II has him play near the entire main cast for saps for about 20 episodes as Shingetsu, give no fucks when his plan to turn Astral evil backfires and creates Dark Zexal (he almost wins because of it, too), show his utter dedication to absolutely burying the main cast for beating him last season and eventually obtaining the Numbers in order to destroy the Astral World, and realize that using friendship against Yuma is most likely the best way to beat him. And even after all that, he's still a likable villain because of the sheer respect you have to have for his dedication to his plans and his hammy, entertaining personality.

Sounds like he could be a keeper, but he'd probably need another writeup.

Also, this on Ashita no Nadja:

I have some familiarity with this series. Preminger absolutely does not count as an example of this trope, but I feel Rosemary absolutely does, so allow me to reserve her for an EP?

Edited by ANewMan on Jun 29th 2019 at 5:20:39 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10824: Jun 29th 2019 at 5:43:00 PM

Feel free to reserve the one you wanna do there Man and we went through a lot of the Yu Gi Oh stuff... to the point where it ended up getting a page. You can take another look if Vector isn't already on our list but go ahead and cut everything for now.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#10825: Jun 29th 2019 at 6:14:09 PM

Bump

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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