During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
L.
Mello.
The only thing I remember really about Near being a somewhat memorable trait was him randomly calling Light and breathing heavily to the point Light was freaked out. Aside from that like Mello, he doesn't really stand out.
Edited by Klavice on Jun 26th 2019 at 4:33:23 AM
I'd say Near's “The Reason You Suck” Speech to Light was also pretty memorable. Still, Near's definitely not an MB in the anime/manga. Hell, he doesn't even really have the "Bastard" part, even if he was as good as L.
'Yes' to L, but 'No' to anyone else from Death Note (at least the original manga/anime).
Now, for my write-ups. Also gonna go ahead and throw Baccano and Pluto on my To-Do list, and reserve the upcoming Pluto anime as well as Noah Hawley's Dr. Doom movie (whenever it comes out, lol).
- GI Joe Rise Of Cobra and G.I. Joe: Retaliation: Cobra Commander, once known as Rex Lewis, was a soldier in the US military who was left to die, and takes the opportunity to go into hiding and perfect the nanite technology. Going undercover as "the Doctor", the Commander fools James McCullen into being his pawn, using the man's resources to secretly build his own organization called Cobra that the Commander uses to overthrow McCullen. Able to instantly silence any of his captured soldiers and even quickly using his sister Ana as a hostage to enable his escape from the G.I. Joes, the Commander installs Zartan as the President of the United States and uses him to eliminate the G.I. Joes and wipe out every country's nuclear weapons, at which point the Commander unveils his powerful Kill Sat Zeus, with which he hopes to gain ultimate power over the world, and very nearly succeeds. Cobra Commander escapes at the end of the films with many of his resources intact, and showcases a tremendous amount of manipulation and scheming in his quest to bring the entire planet under a Cobra banner.
- G.I. Joe (IDW): The brilliant, affably charming first Cobra Commander introduced in the story is the current leader of Cobra, elected the most times in a row out of any Commander due to his efficiency and charisma. Taking time out of his schedule to personally recruit potentials to Cobra, the Commander is a generous boss, always willing to hear out and promote his subordinates for ingenuity, and yet never hesitating to silence or dispose of any Cobra members he finds distasteful or a hindrance to the organization. The Commander outsmarts the G.I. Joes at every turn, blowing up one of his most treasured bases and even abandoning the long-sought MASS device to one-up the Joes, and in his grandest outing seems to convince the former Joe Chuckles to his side, nonetheless keeping the dangerous man always under surveillance, and the Commander is only beaten when Chuckles betrays him after months of loyal servitude.
- G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero (Marvel): Wilder Vaughn is the leader of the Red Shadows, a covert terrorist group seeking the destruction of both G.I. Joe and Cobra itself. Becoming disgusted with the modern governments and military after witnessing a group of American soldiers massacre a village in Asia, Vaughn goes into hiding and carries out a variety of assassinations against the Joes and Cobra, culminating in seemingly killing Cobra Commander and seizing his assets. Utilizing his variety of followers who have infiltrated world governments, Vaughn gains full access to the Umbra systems that he himself developed and that are installed in many of the servers and communications systems around the world. Vaughn plans to wipe out every government, political and religious power in the world, and replace them all with the Red Shadows, who will rule with peace and prosperity in mind, not their own power, and Vaughn very nearly completes his plan, only being taken down due to his own soldiers' failings.
- JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Kars is the leader of the Pillar Men, a group that seeks the Red Stone of Aja so as to become immune to the sunlight that harms them and reign as the "ultimate lifeforms." Awakening in the present day after centuries of slumber, Kars dispatches his loyal friends Wammuu and Esidisi to search for the Red Stone, and showcases his love for nature and its creatures when he murders a group of men who tried to kill a dog. Manipulating Joseph into assisting him in his quest for the stone by threatening the life of Lisa Lisa, promising to play fair only to use pragmatic tricks to win the day, Kars obtains the Red Stone of Aja, using it to become a god. Kars gives Joseph the fight of his life, as he constantly adapts to each and every thing the Hamon user throws at him, until he is finally outwitted and blasted into space only by sheer luck on Joseph's part.
- The Spectacular Spider-Man: Dr. Otto Octavius was once the meek, milquetoast assistant to Norman Osborn, and created several supervillains with his scientific genius, but upon nearly dying in a lab accident and having his arms welded to him, becomes the genius, diabolical "Dr. Octopus." After his initial defeat by Spider-Man, Octopus grows smarter and more resourceful, creating the villainous team-up of "the Sinister Six", using them to beat Spider-Man to such a point that the hero flees for his life. A gentleman who is genuinely friendly with his fellow villains and willing to allow safe passage to innocent bystanders, Octopus takes over a chunk of New York's criminal underworld as the "Master Planner" from the luxury of a mental hospital he has manipulated himself into by pretending to be redeemed. Octopus's master plan is to take over the computer systems of every piece of technology in the world, and succeeds in doing so to Manhattan before being stopped by Spider-Man. A mastermind so brilliant that he ran rings around every other villain in the series at least once, Dr. Octopus is one of Spider-Man's greatest, most intelligent foes.
Edited by Ravok on Jun 26th 2019 at 8:26:15 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Baccano... i'm thinking about Ladd Russo and Elmer C. Albartross when it comes to MB but I could be wrong.
Its an interesting anime and I'm planning to throw Fermet a rewrite for a CM cleanup thread in later future.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jun 26th 2019 at 9:56:43 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Who is he? What has he done?
A few centuries ago there was a catastrophe on the planet Namek that saw a large number of it's population die, the Namekian Katas was forced to send his child, the Nameless Namek to Earth to escape this.
Losing his memory of his home planet, throughout his adolescents his heart became corrupted. Later on, he was forced to separate the evil from his heart in order to take the position of Guardian of the Earth, splitting himself into two beings: Kami (his good half) and Demon King Piccolo (his evil half).
Upon coming into existence, King Piccolo and his creatures threw the world into an apocalypse that devastated the world and killed a large number of people, until one day the martial artist, Master Mutaito performed a Heroic Sacrifice used the Evil Containment Wave to seal King Piccolo away. Where he laid in the deepest depths of the ocean.
A few centuries later, King Piccolo is released from his confinement by the Pilaf Gang.
Upon finding out about the dragonballs, King Piccolo makes his first order of business by spiting out Tambourine and Piano. He has Tambourine scout out all of the world's martial artists and kill them one by one, as to prevent any potential users of the Evil Containment Wave from sealing him again. While Piano acts as his advisor.
Tambourine succeeds in killing a large number of fighters, including Krillin (and nearly kills a fatigued Goku). Along with receiving the four star Dragonball that Tambourine took after killing Krillin.
King Piccolo then spits out Cymbal who he assigns the task of gathering the Dragon Balls. King Piccolo seeks the Dragon Balls so that he can wish to regain his youth and full power.
Upon sensing Cymbal and Tambourine die, rather than apathetically dismiss their deaths, King Piccolo goes out of his way to avenge them amd confronts Goku directly.
Despite the huge power gap between him and Goku. King Piccolo wastes no time in curb stomping Goku and almost immediately goes straight for the kill. Even checking Goku's heart to make sure he's dead, and takes his dragonball. King Piccolo technically did kill Goku, Goku's heart just recovered itself.
Master Roshi buries the five dragonballs that him, Tien and Chaitozu found planning to take the other two balls in KP's possession while he's distracted. King Piccolo immediately catches on to their scheme and swallows his dragonballs.
Master Roshi attempts to seal King Piccolo with the Evil Containment Wave but misses the jar at the last second. The attempt causes Roshi to lose all his life energy and die as a result.
When King Piccolo summons Shenron. Chaitozu attempts to intercept KP's wish but KP kills Chaitozu before he can finish his sentence and the demon king successfully makes the wish to have his youth restored.
He then kills Shenron to ensure that no one will be able to use the Dragonballs against him.
Rather than all-out destroy civilization like he did the first time, he instead overthrows King Furry, after searching for him (killing many of Furry's guards in the process), to become the ruler of the Earth. At first, King Furry refuses to hand over his throne to Piccolo, but after Piccolo killed the Captain of the Guard on the hovercraft and destroyed half of the city with only some of his power, King Furry reluctantly does so. As part of entertaining himself, he institutes several evil policies such as releasing all criminals and a more planned system of destruction. Since the Dragon world is split into 43 sections, King Piccolo decides that for every year on the day he conquered over King Furry, he will personally destroy each one of these sections until there is nothing but dust. The first number he randomly picks is 29, which is West City. Piccolo and Piano then prepare to fly to West City to start their new celebration scheme.
Upon being confronted by Tien. KP spots out Drum, who curb stomps Tien before Drum can kill Tien, Goku arrives, stronger than ever Goku effortlessly kills Drum with a single kick.
King Piccolo then fights Goku. Despite being on the losing end for the majority of the fight and having to resort to taking Tien hostage in order to let Goku stand still so he can break Goku's arm and leg with rocks. KP recovers when he moves in to block Goku's Kamehameha propelled attack, which fails and KP dies but before he dies he spits out his reincarnation, Piccolo Jr. to finish where he left off.
Is he smart? Does he think on his feet?
Yes. I would argue moreso than nearly every other villain. Many of whom are prone to Bond Villain Stupidity mistakes that end up biting them in the ass later on either out of carelessness or sadism. However, KP makes little to no mistakes. He had world domination plan mapped out and learned from his past defeat at Mutaito's hands by attempting to dispose of any potential users of it as a precaution.
He caught on to Roshi's plan to take his Dragonballs right away and swallowed his.
While he does go through a Villainous Breakdown when Goku starts overpowering him in their second fight and resorts to cowardly using Tien as a Human Shield. He recovers by declaring that his My Death Is Just the Beginning and sending his reincarnation, Piccolo Jr. to finish where he left off.
Rather than pathetically beg or squirm for his life like Frieza and Cell. KP accepted his death in the end and ultimately considered more of an inconvenience.
Does he have charm?
I think so. He made Dragonball fun for me. Before him there was no truly threatening villain (except maybe Tao Pai Pai). Even the Red Ribbon Army were jokes. King Piccolo set the standard with how surprisingly intimidating he was which carried over into the second part of the show.
Toriyama even said that King Piccolo was his favorite villain and fir goid reason imo.
'Is he a bastard?
He's killed lots of people, reduced the Earth to an apocalyptic wasteland and attempted to throw it in chaos a second time, etc. Definite bastard!
Too much of a bastard?
Debatable. He was easily the worst adversary of Part 1 Dragonball but by the standards of the later half he's actually quite tame. Frieza, Cell, Buu, and especially Moro and Zamasu are infinitely worse. Even Vegeta pre-redemption is much worse than KP.
King Piccolo is very sadistic but he lacks the needless sadism and still can thimk through his actions competently.
On top of that he cares for his children. He was angered when Cymbal and Tambourine were killed and went out of his way to avenge them. Making him one of the very few villains in the show to have some degree of care for their underlings. So major points there.
Discuss.
Absolute yes for King Piccolo. I don't think any villain changed Dragon Ball like he did.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
to King Piccolo say can Super Buu qualify as an MB?
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 26th 2019 at 10:49:02 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
for Demon King Piccolo.
My issue with Super Buu is. That has an epic, epic Villainous Breakdown when Vegito starts beating him up. Even theartening to tear down multiple dimensions in one big galatic temper tantrum.
Big
to King Piccolo and unfortunately Super Buu doesn't really count due to his big Villainous Breakdown when losing to Vegito and also when Vegeta is about to yank Fat Buu's essence out of him.
King Piccolo
I never felt Super Buu belonged anywhere near the trope, as having a good deal of Genre Savviness isn't all it takes to make a Magnificent Bastard. And of course we've got Freeza and Zamasu being genocidal bigots, so they're out of the question. Cell would actually be the more debatable choice for me, as for as much of a Complete Monster as he is, he not only has a good deal in common with King Piccolo, but he, sort of like Azula, had an epic Villainous Breakdown that he then bounced back from when he returned back in his perfect form and more powerful than ever, and if it weren't for Vegeta and Goku's spirit's efforts to help Gohan, he'd have won.
Edited by ANewMan on Jun 27th 2019 at 8:22:15 AM
The problem with Cell that makes me hesitant in effortposting him is that he makes so many bonehead mistakes due to his sadism and lust for a good fight. Such as deliberately causing Gohan's Super Saiyan Two power up by torturing his friends infront of him. That is a absolutely needless Kick the Dog, that ultimately screwed him over.
I am not sure he truly recovered after his Villainous Breakdown upon reviving from his self destruction as you can see from his facial expressions that he's gone visibly insane from it, and his death at Gohan's hands comes off a bit pathetic with him pretty much screaming "I AM PERFECT".
Edited by username2527 on Jun 27th 2019 at 8:36:34 AM
