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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10426: Jun 18th 2019 at 6:51:15 PM

First MB EP ever. Here we go:

What is the work?

Happy Death Day is a 2017 Horror Comedy in which sorority girl Theresa "Tree" Gelbman being murdered on her birthday by a mysterious killer wearing a baby mask (her school's mascot), only to wake up and find the day has started over. Tree lets herself keep getting killed again and again so she can keep reliving the day and find the killer, who it turns out is closer than she realizes.

Who is she and what has she done?

Lori Spengler is Tree's roommate and a nursing student. Frustrated by Tree's affair with a college professor who she's also sleeping with (Dr. Gregory Butler), Lori resolves to murder Tree by having her eat a poisoned red velvet cupcake. When Tree doesn't take the bait, Lori seeks a new means of trying to kill her: release deranged serial killer John Toombs who is a patient at the hospital she works at and provide him with the baby mask as a disguise so she can murder Tree with the same disguise and pin it on Toombs. Since everyone on campus knows it's Tree's birthday and is many are wearing the baby mask, Lori uses that as a means of increasing the suspect list and making it unlikely she will ever be caught.

Lori is successful as Tree is on the campus on her way to the surprise party for her. When the day is reset though and Tree sees this coming now, Lori has to adapt. Using the disguise (which many people on campus are wearing), Lori traps and kills Tree and a guy she's about to sleep with at that very party. Day is reset again and there's a point when Tree is preparing herself and Lori murders her by drowning her in a fountain. Another point, she catches Tree off guard and bludgeons her. Another she traps Tree in a car and then blows it up. Tree begins to suspect Toombs is her killer and puts her focus on him until she kills him, but then still dies. Tree discovers the cupcake Lori made her (which she finally ate that night) was poisoned and puts together that it was Lori all along. Even then, Lori still traps her in their room and tries to kill her. Tree, however is able to shove the cupcake in Lori's mouth so she recoils and then swings on the light fixture and kicks her out the window to her death.

Lori returns in Happy Death Day 2U in an alternate dimension where she is NOT the killer and Gregory is. She saves Tree when Tree is cuffed and nearly killed by Gregory, targeting Lori because he wants to dispose of his mistress without any trouble (he's sleeping with just her in this scenario), but gets killed in few different versions of that particular day. Tree however grows very fond of Lori and feeling she needs to make up for her being a killer in her own reality, is able to save Lori in the final scenario and kill Gregory.

Bastard? Too much?

It's pretty extreme that she's trying to kill Tree just because she's sleeping with the same man, but while Lori doesn't remember each and every scenario, it's very impressive that she's so quick to adapt and succeed in almost every one. The only ones she doesn't is where Tree is hit by a bus with her frenemy Danielle Bouseman, Tree hangs herself to escape Toombs and save her Love Interest Carter Davis and the one where she's finally killed by Tree. Despite a lot of what she does being undone each time, Lori is still shown to be quick on her feet and highly intelligent that it does carry over in each one and still earns a lot of credit for it overall.

Gregory counts as a CM for the second one despite only one kill in the final scenario because his brutality and other killings still carry over. Also, while Lori's plan to use Toombs didn't succeed in the scenario where Tree ate the cupcake, the cupcake was still Lori's initial plan and it did indeed work. Lori acts on emotion, so she's not considering the consequences of what Toombs could do while he's loose and she really only focuses on killing Tree (the one scenario where she kills someone else is just because he was in the way). Also, doing her job otherwise at the hospital and being a student does express how smart she is as well. Granted she's not exactly the same, but I still think it's worth note that Tree is desperate to save her despite being a killer in another scenario who tortured her for what was days to Tree.

Verdict?

I'll say [tup].

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 18th 2019 at 7:01:26 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#10427: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:03:20 PM

Eh, I'm gonna say [tdown]. When it's revealed that she's evil, she throws pretty much all charm out the window, and is just an extremely petty adult child.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10428: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:04:00 PM

Agreed. Her ultimate motivation is also...mmmm....a bit too petty, too.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10429: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:04:58 PM

Unfortunately going to have to concur that her pettiness saps all the charm out for me.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10430: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:09:07 PM

Alright. Well I tried.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 18th 2019 at 7:21:30 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#10431: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:20:53 PM

....I don't see any charm around Lori. To be honest her whole plan revolves around just murdering someone, for a petty reason I might add.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10432: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:21:28 PM

I would argue that Tree herself is pretty petty beforehand so then Lori's pettiness is par for the course, but then again, Tree has a better reason for it (her mother who shared her birthday passed away) and Tree is only seeking to kill her own killer to survive at the end of the day. So yeah, [tdown].

Actually, maybe Tree would work a lot better for this (she kind of fits into the category of Anti-Hero).

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 18th 2019 at 7:22:46 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10434: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:29:11 PM

Okay, unless anyone objects, I might take a shot at Tree some point this week and see how it goes. Someone else wants to do her first, fine with me. If she doesn't count, oh well.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 18th 2019 at 7:32:15 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#10435: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:31:59 PM

Most of Tree's manipulation comes across as Guile Hero so I'd say no on her too.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10436: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:32:28 PM

@username Would make sense since it's the foil to this.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10437: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:33:12 PM

Mmm... I see Lori's EP only really touched on the threshold of how much of a bastard she is. I'll hear you out on Tree and I haven't seen the films but I think it bears mentioning that the template for this trope also requires you sell us on the character having some manner of charm for the audience to grasp on to, be able to play events, people and adapt their plans if needed.

[up][up] Oh, well that answers that.

Edited by 43110 on Jun 18th 2019 at 10:33:56 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10438: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:34:27 PM

@43 Well username suggested she better fit Guile Hero. Would that be correct?

In a way, this is harder than approving a CM.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 18th 2019 at 7:50:17 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10439: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:44:56 PM

@ Future, That's fine, if you think she fits you can just write an entry for that on her character page since that trope doesn't need to go through a cleanup thread.

Also I found Madame Gao's entry to be one a bit longer than necessary (dwarfing Thanos and Wilson Fisk just looks weird) so I made a truncated version.

Original:

  • The Defenders: Madame Gao is one of the mysterious leaders of The Hand. Introduced as a crime lord working with Wilson Fisk, she first comes into conflict with the heroes of New York through her heroin trade. To make her operations succeed she takes control of people with great power and utilizes their resources for her own ends. Danny Rand discovers she has deeply ingrained her people within his company and is using it as a front for her drug trade. Gao is shown to be exceptionally skilled at controlling people. She tempts a person by targeting their greed, and once she has a hold of them she continues to control them using fear, as seen with Harold Meachum. She also distills unwavering loyalty in her followers who will give up their lives to do her bidding. Her heroin factory workers are revealed to have all been blinded voluntarily as a sign of their faith towards her. Her influence can even be felt in those those she does not directly control, as Danny spends a large portion of the season feeling utterly powerless against her. She also displays an unflinching will, as even when things go south for her she never breaks character from her usual calm disposition. When she gets held captive by Danny and his friends, she is able to plant doubt in each of them with a Breaking Speech, as well as feigning she's under the effects of truth serum before revealing she was immune and was actually messing with them.

Mine:

  • The Defenders: Madame Gao is a leader of The Hand who works with Wilson Fisk, first coming into conflict with the Defenders through her heroin trade in New York City. A manipulator extraordinaire, Gao operates by gaining leverage on powerful figures, having deeply ingrained herself into Danny Rand's family company and uses it as a front for her drug trade. A charismatic leader, Gao's followers are unwaveringly loyal to her, her drug factory workers having willingly blinded themselves as a sign of faith in her. Ever calm in the face of her enemies, Gao manipulates Danny and his friends when they capture her, manipulating them into doubting each other and mocks them by pretending to be under the effects of their truth serum.

Also, the labeling is my fault but at the time I thought The Defenders made the most sense since she's in multiple works but would we prefer her being under Iron Fist (how OP had her originally) since that's where she's most active?

Edited by 43110 on Jun 18th 2019 at 10:45:43 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#10440: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:54:48 PM

Honestly, I think we should just do with Gao what we did with Thanos, and simply place her under Netflix series as opposed to putting her under a specific show. Gao's a fairly notable player in three Netflix series

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jun 18th 2019 at 10:55:11 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10441: Jun 18th 2019 at 8:07:42 PM

I'm fine with doing that, just bumping her to the top and tagging shit to the associated shows.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10442: Jun 19th 2019 at 12:01:44 AM

Gonna say 'No' to Lori, too petty for me.

This will be my last candidate before my write-ups, and 43, if you don't mind? Move Kars to my pending list, as Awesomekid gave me the honor of writing him up (thanks again!).

Now, for said last candidate? From a series I've already proposed two baddies from....The Spectacular Spider-Man. I had once decided against this one, but upon reflection...I think he passes.

Who is Doctor Otto "Octopus" Octavius? What makes him a candidate?

Doctor Otto Octavius was a top scientist at Oscorp Industries, and despite his meek, milquetoast personality, was a brilliant genius capable of creating superpowered individuals such as the Sandman and Rhino.

Underneath his insecure, doormat personality abused by Norman Osborn, a more brilliant, confident attitude desperate to be unleashed, Octavius was given this exact capability when, while during an experiment involving his four, tentacle-like mechanical arms, Green Goblin sabotaged said experiment, resulting in the chip that controls Octavius's mechanical arms to be fused into his spine.

This event pushing him over the edge, Octavius embraces his more malicious tendencies, christening himself "Dr. Octopus" and attempting to murder both Osborn and Spider-Man in one fell swoop, blaming them for trying to kill him in sabotaging the experiment.

Forced to flee as his mechanical arms begin running low on power, Octopus incapacitates Spider-Man and grabs a spare power pack as he escapes, replacing it with his current one to give him a few hours' more charge....invading the lab of a fellow scientist, Octopus reveals he had helped the man invent a prototype "megalopack", capable of powering devices for years at a time, yet had let the man take all the credit for himself thanks to Octavius's previous "weak" attitude.

Attempting to steal the megalopack, Octopus is halted as Spidey arrives and takes it first, learning that Octopus plans to use it to power his arms for years to come...deciding to play "keepaway" until Octopus's arms run out of their current power source, Spidey is one-upped as Octopus quickly deduces this plan of his and responds by grabbing the bystander Liz Allen and threatening to drop her to her death if Spidey doesn't hand over the megalopack, boasting that his current power pack has at least an hour's charge left and he can do plenty of damage to innocents in the meantime.

Spidey flings the megalopack away for Octopus to recover while he rescues Liz, and though Spidey tries to fight off Octopus again the mad doctor manages to seemingly defeat the hero, at which point Octopus tries to switch out his current power pack with the megalopack and cement his arms's power....Spidey reveals he was taking defeat, and manages to steal both of the packs before Octopus can use them, leaving the villain to be arrested.

Later in prison, Octopus gets in communication with a variety of villains, namely befriending the Vulture and becoming a father figure to Electro. Leading Electro through the process of gaining his freedom, Octopus then has Electro overload the prison's electrical systems, enabling the escape of the villains Octopus has brought into his fold....with Rhino, Sandman, Vulture, Electro, and Shocker at his side, Octopus escapes the prison with ease, creating the villainous team up known as the "Sinister Six".

Having Rhino cause destruction across New York to lure Spidey out, Octopus then has the Six ambush him, throwing him off-balance and sending him fleeing to survive. As Spidey uses the previous methods he had in taking down the villains, Octopus reveals he has planned for all of the weaknesses the Six previously had, and compensated for them (reinforcing Vulture's steel, having Electro charge his tentacles so they don't need a power pack, etc).

In the process of the fight, Octopus allows two elderly women to get out of harm's way before beginning to fuel Spidey, even halting Rhino's attempt at "just plowing through them" before politely waving the women off with a "run along now!"

Sitting down to have dinner with the Six in the middle of their rampage, remarking to the waiter that his decision to give them their meal on the house is both "generous and wise", Octopus halts their in-fighting and 4 of their attempts to leave the group, soldifying their resolve to destroy Spider-Man before going their separate ways.

Taking a group of hostages simply to lure Spider-Man out, Octopus then has the Six ambush him again and manages to restrain him, allowing Rhino the honor of finishing him with the choice of "crushing his head or impaling his heart". Unfortunately for the Six, Spidey is being controlled by the violent, superpowerful symbiote, which uses a variety of tricks and brutality that the Six could not have anticipated to slowly weed them down one by one.

Hanging back while Spidey tires himself out fighting the rest of the group, remarking "I knew you were getting serious when you stopped cracking those pathetic jokes", Octopus nearly defeats the webhead, even hoping to follow through on fulfilling his word to Rhino by impaling Spidey on the unconscious Rhino's horn, but a freakout by a trapped Electro blasts Octopus, allowing Spidey to free himself and take down Octopus with the confusion.

Following this, Octopus seems to revert back to how he was before the experiment, being committed to a mental hospital instead of prison due to his personality becoming mild-mannered and cowardly again.

In actuality faking this reversion to seem less dangerous and get himself into a hospital instead of prison, Octopus uses the freedom a hospital affords to concoct a new scheme under the guise of rising criminal boss "the Master Planner."

Using Mysterio and the Tinkerer to steal a mass of technology for him, Octopus then lures the world-renowned Hunter Sergei "Kraven" Kravinoff to New York to hunt Spidey, and once Kraven fails, Octopus recruits him into the Master Planner's fold.

Creating a new Sinister Six comprised of Electro, Vulture, Rhino, Sandman, Mysterio and Kraven, Octopus—as the Master Planner—goes so far as to order Kraven to break "Octavius" out of the mental hospital, and Octopus, continuing his act, cowers away from Kraven and begs to be left alone.

Sending the new Sinister Six after Spidey, Octopus uses a different method in battling the hero, sending the team in groups of two so as to wear him down slowly and not allow him to turn their powers and abilities against each other as he has in the past. And though Spidey manages to defeat the Sinister Six barely, Octopus nonetheless recovers each and every member of the group from capture by police (except Mysterio).

Having ordered the Tinkerer to send his robotic arms to break the "unwilling" Octavius out of the hospital once their scheme is nearing completion, Octopus reveals himself to his group as the Master Planner upon arriving in his hidden underwater base, proclaiming that it serves his purposes to appear mentally unstable for the freedom a hospital gave him VS a prison, and that by staying at said hospital as a "helpless patient", it was throwing all suspicion off of him.

Octopus's "master plan" is then revealed...using the technology he had Mysterio steal in the beginning, Octopus had the Tinkerer work to build a massive server and connection portal that allows Octopus direct control over every computer in New York. Testing the tech by remotely detonating an unarmed bomb to try to kill Norman Osborn as a favor to Vulture, Octopus confirms the tech is working and begins the next phase of his plan, all while sipping from his "EVIL GENIUS" mug....his evil lair even comes with a coffee maker for his minions (with a note taped to it asking them all politely to make sure they clean up after themselves so they aren't leaving a mess for the next person).

Using his control of New York to track Gwen Stacy's cell phone to a coffee shop, Octopus shuts down the shop's electricity, forcing all of the patrons outside, then hacks traffic lights to cause a car crash. As everyone is distracted by the crash, Octopus has Electro zap Gwen unconscious and kidnaps her in a vehicle, which Octopus helps along the way fleeing from Spider-Man by turning every traffic light in their favor.

With Gwen in hand, Octopus contacts her father, Captain Stacy of the NYPD, and orders him to bring a computer virus into Homeland Security's New York HQ in return for the man's daughter, as it is the only system in New York Octopus cannot access as it is on a private, highly secured network....and once he has control of it, it will allow him to spread his virus control to every computer in the world, enabling a complete takeover of the Earth.

As Spidey arrives and duels Octopus's minions, Octopus calmly continues to talk Stacy through the infiltration process, but is thrown off as Stacy demands to speak to his daughter once more to ensure she's ok before he goes through with the virus implanting...due to Electro's anger issues and power fluctuations, Octopus's base sustains damage despite Octopus warning him several times to tone it down, and so Octopus personally attacks Spidey so as to grab Gwen and confirm to Stacy she is ok so he will inject the virus.

Sarcastically applauding Spider-Man figuring out the "Master Planner's" identity "After I've already revealed it", Octopus fights and nearly destroys the webhead, but due to Electro's damage to the structure, the server channeling all of the computer information is destroyed, and Octopus's mind is flooded with every computer system in New York all at once.

Sent into agonizing pain, Octopus is forced to destroy his connection to the computers of New York, ending his "master plan". Utterly resigned and exasperated by yet another of his plans being foiled, Octopus simply sighs, sets his base to self destruct, and bids Spider-Man farewell.

Octopus has his last appearance as he arrives to a summit consisting of himself, Tombstone, and Silvermane, the three big crime bosses of New York. Though at first willing to discuss a potential truce, Octopus and Silvermane are "betrayed" by Tombstone (actually a plan by Goblin to get them all to destroy each other), and Octopus works with Silvermane to try to kill Tombstone for this TREACHERYYYYY.

During the trio's duel, Octopus takes the opportunity to try to kill Silvermane as well, remarking "who am I to pass up an opportunity?", but the arrival of Spidey turns the three-way fight into a four way brawl....Octopus? Actually has the state of mind to focus on Spidey, stating that the crime lords can either rule New York together or split it between the three of them, but first and foremost they should eliminate Spider-Man together.

Tombstone refuses said proposal due to there being "too many witnesses" and thwarts Octopus and Silvermane's attempt to kill Spidey, resuming the brawl....when Spidey incapacitates Silvermane, Octopus attempts to kill his fallen foe, noting he has no problem being "a scavenger. The law of the jungle prevails!"

Stopped by Spidey, Octopus is ultimately beaten when smashed through a street into a sewer, where Spidey takes his power pack and webs him up to be arrested along with the other crime bosses, ending all of their reigns over New York for the foreseeable future (except Tombstone ofc).

Is Octopus a Chessmaster? Manipulative Bastard? Capable of playing Xanatos Speed Chess?

Yes, yes, and yes to the nth power. Octopus is brilliant, planning out two formations of the Sinister Six and maintaining them all as a team despite their....conflicting personalities, becomes one of the top crime bosses in New York as the "Master Planner" all from the comfort of a mental hospital bed, convinces everyone he's back to his meek personality, instantly adapts to Spider-Man's new black suit's powers to nearly best him even with said power up, and above all else? Octopus learns from his mistakes, never repeating a plan or similar pattern if he can help it, to such a point that he decides even new strategies for using the Sinister Six against Spidey.

In terms of planning? Octopus trumps even Tombstone and possibly Goblin in this regard.

Is Octopus a bastard? Is he charming? Does he have any traits worthy of respect?

Octopus is easily the 2nd most evil villain in the show, right behind Goblin. He endangers innocents, he threatens defenseless teenagers several times, and his "master plan" to take over every computer in the world is treated with the heavy, malicious insight that Octopus could and will cause untold damage to countless lives.

On the same hand though, Octopus is even less viscerally evil than Goblin (who counts), and he has his standards and affability about him, allowing two old ladies safe passage away from a fight, treating his partners (especially Vulture) with at the least a notable amount of respect, and he often knows exactly when he's beaten and gives no further resistance or lashing out.

Now, the thing that has made me hesitate for the longest time on Octopus? He is arrogant and loud when he wants to be. Unlike Tombstone who keeps a cool head no matter what, and Goblin who is either the cold, calculating Osborn or the whimsical, careless Goblin, Octopus has Insufferable Genius traits, likes to throw around "moron" and "fools!" often, and can and will scream things like "DO YOU EVER SHUT UP?!" to Spider-Man should he sufficiently irritate him. This is most apparent in his debut episode, but to note is that as the show goes on, he becomes less and less overtly smug and irritable. It never fully leaves, but he controls his temper and arrogance far better.

This is a bit difficult, obviously. Octopus generally keeps a soft-spoken, respectful and affable air about him after his debut episode, but he also has his moments where he loses his temper or resorts to Large Ham "You have interfered in my business for the last time, arachnid!!!!" shouting.

Honestly though, for me, after mulling it over and rewatching his episodes? I don't think it's enough to disqualify Octopus given he hits every single mark so well. He never has a full-on Villainous Breakdown, his bouts of anger never impede him or are used to distract him (compare Octopus to Electro or Rhino, whose anger is used by Spidey against them, meanwhile Spidey is well aware that Octopus can't be played this way, even when he gets angry), it's played more like Large Ham Chewing the Scenery rather than a disgraceful rage, and given how utterly suave and charming he is the rest of the time? I think Octopus having anger moments or screaming in rage now and then can be overlooked, at least for me.

Final Verdict?

I think Octopus makes it. He's a brilliant planner (one might even say a master at it), he keeps the Sinister Six under his control and calm, he tricks everyone into thinking he's rehabilitated, and though he can get pissed now and then? It never is portrayed as a negative to his character, and only serves to make him more memorable in how he casually tosses out "you imperious moron" to those who cross him.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#10443: Jun 19th 2019 at 1:51:43 AM

[tup] to Doc Ock.

Sounds like a Dr.Doom scenario where he is over the top and thinks lesser of others, but not in a Smug Snake way.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10445: Jun 19th 2019 at 5:10:04 AM

Yes to Ock and I’ll rip Kars on over to your to do Ravok. Anyone have thoughts on my Gao rewrite?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10446: Jun 19th 2019 at 5:12:15 AM

[tup]Ock

[tdown]lori

Also Gao looks good. I do agree with moving her to the top of the netflix group too.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#10447: Jun 19th 2019 at 5:34:04 AM

Sure to Ock and the writeups pretty neat. Moving? Hmmm... Let me think about it.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10448: Jun 19th 2019 at 6:12:33 AM

It would be kinda silly not to, given she's got a notable presence in multiple shows. She might not do as much as the Kingpin but it makes no sense to keep her under one.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#10450: Jun 19th 2019 at 6:23:21 AM

Yes to Ock. Man I used to love that, but haven't seen it in years.

No to Lori.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

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