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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#10402: Jun 17th 2019 at 3:16:37 PM

[tup] to Aspasia

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#10405: Jun 17th 2019 at 4:13:17 PM

BTW, The Boondocks is apparently coming back in the form of a Continuity Reboot. This one's all mine.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10408: Jun 17th 2019 at 5:54:13 PM

Btw does anyone mind if we cut the last line from this?

  • Aladdin and Aladdin The Return Of Jafar: Grand Vizier Jafar is an Evil Sorceror who acts as royal vizier to the Sultan of Agrabah. His schemes to take over the throne for himself first involve retrieving the lamp with the Genie in it that can grant wishes, and then to convince the Sultan to let him marry Princess Jasmine so he can inherit it by marriage. While Aladdin derails both plans, Jafar realizes he has the lamp and steals it, using it to make himself the most powerful sorceror in the world. Aladdin tricks Jafar into wishing to be a Genie, Jafar not realizing that his newfound power comes with imprisonment in a lamp of his own. However, as soon as the thief Abis Mal finds Jafar's lamp and releases him, he goes back to plotting to take over Agrabah and get revenge on Aladdin. He captures all of Aladdin's allies, frames him for the Sultan's murder, and pulls it off without Aladdin even realizing he's back. Along the way, Jafar tempers his arrogance and anger with enough cunning and charisma to back up his ego, and manages to be entertaining in his remorseless villainy thanks to a good heaping of Evil Is Hammy and style. Jafar's popularity as a villain in the long history of the Disney animated canon is rivaled only by Maleficent, and his reputation as such is well-earned.

He's already got a nice summary sentence right before it that reminds us why he's a memorable villain... don't see the necessity of the second one.

Thoughts?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#10409: Jun 17th 2019 at 6:05:33 PM

Yes. Cut the part about being up there with Maleficient as one of Disney's most memorable villains.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#10411: Jun 17th 2019 at 6:07:22 PM

Agreed with cutting the last sentence from Jafar's writeup.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#10412: Jun 17th 2019 at 6:53:52 PM

Sure

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#10414: Jun 17th 2019 at 9:51:27 PM

Okay here's Aspasia's write-up:

  • Assassin's Creed: Odyssey: Aspasia was once the leader of the Cult of Kosmos who controlled the Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta through Athenian Politics and Greek mythology. Becoming the lover of Perikles, she forgo her original plan of killing him after developing genuine feelings for the ruler of Athens and instead manipulated him into supporting her agenda. After having her leadership position removed in favor of Deimos and the Cult killing Perikles, Aspasia would use Deimos' sibling, The Eagle Bearer, to kill off all the members of the Cult before revealing her true identity to the Eagle Bearer and offering them a chance to join her goal in creating a prosperous future where humanity would finally be united by a wise and philosophical king of Aspasia's choosing.

Also thought I should edit Juno's write-up:

  • Juno was a brilliant Isu scientist who plotted for world domination while the other members of the Capitoline Triad tasked with finding solutions to save their world from a Solar Flare Disaster. When Juno's treachery was exposed and was sealed inside the Grand Temple, Juno tampered with Minerva's device so that the device would free Juno as it saves the world. When Minerva decided not to use her world-saving device to keep Juno imprisoned, Juno manipulated the human genetic code with her husband's DNA, creating the Sages and form the Instruments of The First Will, having them orchestrate numerous conflicts for millennia, while she would use the Pieces of Eden to directly manipulate numerous others into her schemes. When Juno's deceit was exposed by Minerva, Juno reveals the Bad Future to Desmond Miles should he not save the world from a second solar flare, forcing Desmond to sacrifice his life to save the world freeing Juno in the process. Finding herself in The Grey she would collaborate with a Sage to possess a research analyst before deciding to create a body of her own. Creating a body by using the Shroud of Eden from Abstergo's Phoenix Project and another Sages DNA, she would then declare her plans to "save humanity".

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10416: Jun 18th 2019 at 7:23:31 AM

[tup]Aspasia

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TheSinful from Apple orchard. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#10417: Jun 18th 2019 at 9:44:34 AM

I'd like to propose Tony Stark in Enough Rope. Over the course of the story, Tony uses vibranium's status as a national treasure in Wakanda to put Steve's shield permanently out of his reach, gets every member of the rogue Avengers on his side except Wanda Maximoff, plays up his disability to get Steve Rogers to verbally attack his critics, and gets the three rogues he hates most exiled to the other side of the world at a minimum (Bucky is sent to a psychiatric facility in Finland, Wanda is imprisoned on Alfaheim, and Steve becomes Earth's ambassador to Asgard) while not only coming out smelling like roses, but making both Bucky and Steve think it was their idea to begin with.

All is not lost. Not yet.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10418: Jun 18th 2019 at 9:52:08 AM

Well, we need a proper proposal

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10420: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:40:58 PM

Do we have a draft page for this? I made a couple edits:

Original:

  • Catch Me If You Can: Frank Abagnale is a born Con Man whose first relatively harmless scheme involved impersonating his French teacher, fooling the entire school for weeks. His later criminal actions consist of acquiring millions of dollars by writing fraudulent checks, sending out fake letters, and posing as air plane pilots, doctors, and lawyers, all to live a lavish lifestyle spent in expensive hotels, throwing parties, and sleeping with numerous women he seduces, as well as a high-class prostitute whom he tricks into paying him for the night spent with her. When the FBI's Financial Crimes unit starts pursuing him, Frank cleverly manages to avoid capture numerous times, such as performing a Bavarian Fire Drill that convinces FBI Agent Carl Hanratty that Frank is a Secret Service agent, and in his most audacious scheme, smuggling himself through an airport filled with FBI agents by recruiting a group of handsome stewardesses to distract the men supposed to be watching out for him. Although the law ultimately catches up with him, Frank is a Lovable Rogue who is so good at what he does that he's able to elude the authorities for years and all before he was even 21.

Edited:

  • Catch Me If You Can: Frank Abagnale Jr. is a born Con Man whose first relatively harmless scheme involved impersonating his French teacher, fooling the entire school for weeks. His later criminal actions consist of acquiring millions of dollars by writing fraudulent checks, sending out fake letters, and posing as air plane pilots, doctors, and lawyers, all to live a lavish lifestyle spent in expensive hotels, throwing parties, and sleeping with numerous women he seduces, as well as a high-class prostitute whom he tricks into paying him for the night spent with her. Along the way, he's writing to and meeting with his father Frank Sr. without ever getting caught too. When the FBI's Financial Crimes unit starts pursuing him, Frank cleverly manages to avoid capture numerous times, such as performing a Bavarian Fire Drill that convinces FBI Agent Carl Hanratty that Frank is a Secret Service agent, and in his most audacious scheme, smuggling himself through an airport filled with FBI agents by recruiting a group of handsome stewardesses to distract the men supposed to be watching out for him. Although the law ultimately catches up with him, Frank is a Lovable Rogue who is so good at what he does that he's able to elude the authorities for years and all before he was even 21.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 18th 2019 at 1:00:28 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10421: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:43:09 PM

What edits and why?

A practice we need to discourage is "I just edited this." Give a reasn.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10422: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:46:35 PM

@Lighty Small edits, but I added in Jr. and a bit about how he was in touch with his father and was never caught through writing to and meeting with him.

Could somebody please put up the template? I want to take a crack at this.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10423: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:55:05 PM

^ In the administriva tab at the top, bud. Also, if you want to edit an entry, please post the original so we can easily judge for ourselves which we prefer. Morgan did the original but I'm not sure if he's around today and I usually default to the OP's opinion on their work being edited.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#10424: Jun 18th 2019 at 1:00:28 PM

@43 Okay, I just added it in.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10425: Jun 18th 2019 at 1:08:47 PM

Mmm... I guess we can add the 'Jr.' since IIRC he's referred to as such but other than that I think the original gets enough of his magnificence across and shaves off the extra 20 words. We already know he comes daringly close to getting caught and keeps evading the cops.


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