During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
But... it does. I’m fairly certain multiple characters in the story going “hey you sound pretty predatory and have a creepy attitude towards woman” makes it not ACI.
Even if they’re not intentional undertones, they’re still there, and clearly acknowledged later because you know, Caliborn exists.
I do agree to quit the debate though. It’s getting tiring, and we’re not even arguing over the thing that IMO disqualifies Scratch the most (his treatment of the Handmaid) :P
I, Furudo Erika... have duct tape..!The evidence I've seen from Research on Scratch seems to Support Satoshis arguments tentative
to Scratch. I don't think we should touch any supposed "Subtext" and would prefer if we just took what was actually onscreen. Plus I think if the creators wanted scratch to be some creepy mysogonist, I don't see why they wouldn't just do so instead of using this Metaphorical stuff.
Also
to Agregor. My personal favorite villain was Malware(Best part of Omniverse IMO) Even if he's a country mile from an MB. Also a sad miss for CM.
Edited by Kylotrope on May 29th 2019 at 9:58:06 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
ok, I think this needs some clearing up- Story!Hussie is the author’s in-universe Author Avatar, who exists mainly for jokes but is somewhat involved in the plot, and repeatedly calls Scratch predatory, at the very least. It’s pretty much the most blatant way the author can go “HEY THIS GUY IS A DOUCHEBAG TOWARDS WOMAN” without flat out making an out-of-universe statement.
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I am still sticking with my no. His treatment of the handmaid sounds abysmal.
That said. Let's end this debate for now, until ~Scraggle decides whether Scratch counts.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 29th 2019 at 1:00:32 PM
TBH, it doesn't sound like Scratch is going to count either way. I am neutral in all of this though.
Yes to Aggregor. No to Vilgax should he ever be proposed. From what I remember he has too many Villainous Breakdowns. When his plans get foiled, he does not remotely keep his cool. He is simply not good at thinking on his feet.
Well, here’s the effort post on Kars.
Who is he? What does he do?
Kars is the Big Bad of Part 2 and the leader of the Pillar Men. Believing that his species could ascend even further beyond and withstand sunlight (the Pillar Men, like zombies and vampires, are weak to sunlight, but can transform into stone to avoid death from it), he invented the stone masks, something that allowed humans to transform into vampires, and allow pillar men to transcend into god-like beings. When he brings this idea forth to his fellow Pillar Men, Esidisi joins his cause, but the other Pillar Men view Kars as a threat to life and try to kill him. Kars tries to further persuade them, but ultimately, he and Esidisi to kill all the Pillar Men sans for two babies, Wamuu and Santana. They take the Pillar Men and raise them to support their cause. Kars finds out that the Stone Mask works fine on humans, but isn’t enough to work on the Pillar Men, and required the gemstone known as the Red Stone of Aja. Kars, Esidisi, and Wammu pursued the stone (Santana was left in Mexico as a guard dog) and wiped out the Ripple clan, but were unable to obtain the stone for reasons unknown, though possibly injuries sustained in battles against the Ripple users, as they go into a deep sleep to recover their strength.
Thousands of years later, the three reawaken and set off to find the Red Stone of Aja after Wamuu defeats Joseph and Caesar. Kars sends Esidisi to get the Red Stone, but after getting no response, heads off to Italy himself. At the border, he quickly deduces that Joseph killed Esidisi after eavesdropping, and vows to avenge him. He stealthily kills several of Stroheim’s men, and defeats Stroheim’s cyborg body, but loses the Red Stone to Joseph (Kars uses a hidden blade in his foot to drag Joseph off a cliff as he falls from it, but Joseph grabs the stone and uses Hamon on a bunch of icicles alongside Caesar to create a makeshift rope to save Joseph)
Kars spends several days using the Stone Mask to turn criminals he comes across into vampires, and convinces them to join his cause due to the power he gave them. When Joseph and Lisa Lisa enter the room Kars and Wamuu are in (Wamuu killed Caesar at this point), Kars reveals that he has hundreds of vampires in the room in hiding, all ready to kill Joseph and Lisa Lisa. However, Lisa Lisa tells Kars that they didn’t bring the Red Stone with them, and lies that they put bombs in the stone set to detonate if they don’t return. Not wanting to take the risk, along with wanting to obtain the stone, Kars allows Joseph to retrieve it while they keep and eye on Lisa Lisa, along with letting Wamuu have an honorable one on one against Joseph like what Wamuu wanted, and Lisa Lisa in turn will fight Kars one on one afterwards. When Wamuu seemingly kills Joseph in their one on one, Kars offers Lisa Lisa a bottle, stating that it’ll kill her painlessly so she doesn’t have to suffer when she fights him, though Lisa Lisa refuses since Joseph was alive. When Joseph defeats Wamuu, several vampires try to kill Joseph, but Kars orders them to stop, along with Wamuu’s severed head killing several of them before dying. He kills several vampires who attempted to dishonor Wamuu’s wishes and leads Lisa Lisa to have their one on one.
Though we find out that all his honorable acts? Merely a ploy to get Lisa Lisa and Joseph to lower their guard. Kars has a body double of himself get killed by Lisa Lisa before he comes out of hiding and stabs Lisa Lisa in the back, taking the stone for himself. As Joseph comes towards him, he strings a rope through Lisa Lisa’s wounds and having her fall off the ruins. When called out on this by Joseph as Kars is disrespecting Wamuu’s wishes, Kars points out that he has no reason to fight honorably if it risks the Pillar Men failing their goals. Kars is willing to respect Wamuu’s wishes for an honorable fight, but only to the extent where it isn’t a hazard for the Pillar Men. The situation Kars puts Joseph in forces him to focus on saving Lisa Lisa while still needing to deal with Kars. Joseph’s Hamon is severely weakened both due to the fight against Wamuu, and the stress of the situation interrupting his breathing.
Despite the disadvantage Kars put him through, Joseph manages to trick Kars with a rope trap trick before sending hamon through him and knocking him into a chasm of spikes, seemingly leaving Kars wide open to be subdued by the Stroheim’s UV lights...except Kars still has the Red Stone as well as the Stone Mask. Inserting the stone in the mask and putting it on (with a seemingly fruitless jump to buy some time) the UV lights shined on him allow Kars to evolve into the Ultimate Life Form he aimed for.
After experimenting with his powers for a bit, Kars sprouts wings and chases after Joseph, vowing to kill him to avenge Esidisi and Wamuu. Joseph manages to get in a jet plane to out fly him, but Kars catches up by shooting scales at the jet, and then turning said scales into piranhas, damaging the jet and causing Kars to catch up. Joseph mannages to trick Kars into thinking he took a parachute, and rams the jet into Kars, knocking him into the volcano, seemingly killing Kars as the first armor Kars created wasn’t able to withstand the lava. Unfortunately, Kars had a plan. Using the bubbles that came from his melting skin to create a second and more powerful layer of armor, letting him withstand in the lava for a couple more minutes, enough to get out of the volcano and slice off Joseph’s arm by surprise.
Kars is about to kill Joseph with Hamon (he learned it after becoming the Ultimate Life Form), but Joseph instinctively puts the Red Stone in front of the attack, leading to a volcanic eruption that blasts the two hundreds of thousands of feet into the air. Joseph distracts Kars enough for blasted rocks to knock Kars upwards even further, causing him to be blasted to space. Kars attempts to blast air to propel him back to Earth, but due to the coldness of space it fails, and Kars trapped in the void of space for eternity as half-mineral, half-animal. Unable to die even though he wishes for it, Kars eventually stops thinking.
How do his actions show that he’s a Magnificent Bastard?
Much like Esidisi, Kars is cunning and suave, nearly always having a trick up his sleeve. He’s a relentless bastard, but still shows a sense of honor from time to time. He faces a ton of setbacks, but almost always bounces back, and achieves his goal of becoming the ultimate being. (though it’s a short lived victory) And the guy oozes charisma, switching from delightfully hammy to elegant and collected fruitlessly.
Any mitigating factors?
Now, Kars is certainly a cruel piece of shit, but unlike Dio, it’s not needless sadism. Wounding Lisa Lisa from behind when falsely promising a fair fight? For the sake of practically obtaining the Red Stone of Aja. Playing guitar with Lisa Lisa’s legs when she’s wounded? To provoke Joseph into charging at him. And like Esidisi, while he looks down on humans, he doesn’t openly mock them. He simply views them as prey, and acknowledges that they’re capable of being threats like how he treated the Hamon Warriors when Wamuu refused to kill a child.
Now, one thing that makes me hesitant is that Kars is really arrogant, primarily upon becoming the supreme being. Though it’s not really Smug Snake territory since he shows to be just a cunning and dangerous as ever.
Final Thoughts?
Your call.
Yeez, I missed this debate.
Anyways... I've read over the EP, read over the debate and gone through some old pages to refresh myself. On reconsideration... I think I have to switch to "no" to Scratch, and it's mostly on account of the fact I misremembered how deliberately and disgustingly awful the Handmaid stuff becomes under scrutiny. I think "Scratch is meant to embody sexism!" might be trying to fit stuff too squarely under certain roofs, but the matter of the fact I think stops and ends that Scratch's abuse of the Handmaid is presented way too despicably to a point it cuts fatally into the "charm."
Cut this from The Dam Busters.
- Magnificent Bastard: Gibson in real life - he could be a real bitch to work under, but popular with higher command.
I am pretty sure real life examples are not allowed.
Now, I just saw the film tonight with my maternal grandfather. I am not sure whether he fits the bill in general, but I hesitate to do anything else about Film!Gibson because of his dog's unfortunate name.
I am willing to suggest others watch the film regardless of whether he fits the bill.
Scratch then.
Alright, today’s the 30th of May, two weeks since Kaiserreich’s Northern Lights update, which added content to the Scandinavian countries. It also expanded on the Second American Civil War as well and gave it’s participants more characterization, including the character that I'm effortposting today.
What is the work?
Well you all know what Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg is by now due to the effortposts by me and Kazuya on Emperor Pedro and Huey Long on this thread. But to sum it up, Alternate History where German Empire wins World War I, Western Europe goes socialist and avoids falling into totalitarian Marxism-Leninism due to the discrediting of Soviet style governance in the wake of the Bolshevik revolution failing in this universe following the assassination of Lenin and the potential death of Trotsky with the fall of Petrograd(through of course adherents to totalitarian forms of government still exist in this universe and can take power).
Now a big event in any Kaiserreich playthrough is the Second American Civil War between the United States government, the far-left Combined Syndicates of America led by our candidate, and Huey Long’s far-right American Union State. In previous version of the mod, the Civil War was avoidable if the player elects Floyd Olson as president of the US and passes New Deal-esque reforms to appease the far left and then assassinating Huey Long. Now? The Civil War is inevitable. However the decisions that the player makes can decide which states flip to the Combined Syndicates of America or the American Union State. This allows both already certified MB Huey Long and our other candidate to exploit this situation to their advantage.
Now, before the current version of Kaiserreich, I didn’t consider this character a MB, he was practically a hero in previous versions and didn’t have too much characterization apart from “being the leader of the Commies in America”. Now this current version of Kaiserreich expands on his characterization a bit more and allows him to do some unscrupulous and underhanded things to achieve his goals that gives him a bit of bastardry. With that said, let’s discuss John Reed, leader of the Combined Syndicates of America.
Who is He?
John "Jack" Silas Reed is an American journalist, poet and syndicalist activist and a presidential candidate from the Socialist Party of America in the 1936 elections. He started off his career as a journalist in the 1910s covering the Mexican Revolution. He joined the Industrial Workers of the World in 1913 and covered the Ludlow masscare in America in 1915; developing socialist views through his experiences. When The Weltkrieg began, he viewed the war as a purely imperialist war waged by capitalists at the expense of the workers, and was disillusioned by the decision by the various social democratic parties to support the war effort of their respective countries in Europe(side note: this disillusion from far leftists over social democrats supporting their countries war efforts during WWI actually happened in the real world as well, and is pretty much a driving force between disagreements between social democrats and anyone to their left). In 1917, Reed covered the Bolshevik Revolution, being introduced to Lenin and Trotsky. He was forced to leave the country in 1921 when the White Army occupied Moscow.
When he came back to the United States in 1921, Reed continued his socialist activism as a member of the Socialist Party, but became more critical of the flaws of Soviet-style authoritarianism with it’s discrediting even through he still admired the Bolsheviks to a degree. By the 1930s the Socialist party, rather than being decimated as it was in our timeline, has grown much stronger by absorbing the IWW and various socialist and communist currents in American society, and is in a position that it could win the 1936 election with Reed, who had served a term as New York Senator in 1928 as it’s candidate. The 1936 election also comes at a time of economic depression, political chaos and polarization that will spiral into another Civil War, and the Socialists, along with Huey Long and the American Firsters, are both looking to take advantage of this political chaos
What does he do?
Now, the American government has many ways to approach this issue. At the start of the game, the government will debate on a reintroduced Garner-Wagner Bill to deal with unemployment as a result of economic depression caused by the Berlin Stock Market collapse. The bill could either pass or fail. If the bill passes, the government has limited resources to provide enough jobs to avoid the crisis, so the government has to choose to distribute funding to regions that either has strong socialist or strong Longist support, which would naturally piss off the other side. If the bill fails, the government uses military means to suppress the radicals, but only has enough manpower to focus on a specific region at a time, which would naturally strengthen the group they’re not focused on. The bill failing also results in the disintegration of the Progressive Party, which Reed takes advantage of to recruit more people to the Socialist cause. At the same time the bill is being debated, Reed, Long and their followers use political intimidation to force older politicians to resign so younger radicals can run for office on both left and right.
If neither Reed or Long wins the election, the Federal government can continue to use excessive force to suppress the radicals, culminating in the assassination of either Reed or Long but leaving things open to the other to paint their rival as a martyr despite their disagreements and make a power grab and thus rendering the civil war inevitable. If Huey Long is assassinated, the far right American First Party collapses. Reed then takes the opportunity to make a power grab for himself. He accuses the government of extrajudicial murder and professes to respect his fallen opponent as someone that also fought for the common man; denouncing the government as a tool for capitalist interests. He then launches his rebellion and the civil war starts, but without the American Union State due to the death of its leader.
Alternatively, the Federal government may pass austerity measures to placate big businesses that are banking on Long to succeed; only to, if you’ve played as the American Union State, launch their own coup if he actually gets into power after the Civil War(events tied to the socialist faction reveal that the businesses backing Long were actually playing all sides in the civil war to their own advantage despite pleding nominal support to Long). This cuts off Huey Long’s lifeline but it leads to Reed launching a rebellion against the austerity measures(Reed himself, or at least his support base, can be appeased if the government passes Social security provisions, but this causes Huey Long to rise up in rebellion).
If Reed somehow gets into power as president by winning the 1936 elections. He either passes wide reaching nationalization and welfare programs via executive orders, and packs the supreme court with pro-Socialist judges to ensure they pass. Alternatively he decides to consolidate power first by attempting to sic the national guard, and later the military on Huey Long and his supporters. Either way General Douglas Mac Arthur stages a coup against Reed and Reed retreats to Chicago to rally his supporters for the coming war.
If the Socialist party is strong enough before the war, and the progressive party has collapsed, they can seize control of Minnesota, as well as potentially New York by the time the civil war starts.
During the war itself, Reed can take various efforts to bolster the war efforts of the Combined Syndicates. He can introduce “War Syndicalism” drawing on what he learned from Lenin and Trotsky’s ill-fated efforts in Russia(the whole War Communism thing), which facilitates state control of all foreign trade, nationalization of all factories, and strict labour discipline. He can also confiscate the wealth of the rich in Combined Syndicates territory to fuel the war effort; either putting rich people and right wing politicians into forced labour until they are sufficiently rehabilitated, imprison them for life, or just execute them. He can also allow neo-Communists within his movement to create a surveillance program to suppress espionage directed against them. If one of the other factions come out on top, he can try to ally with another faction in the civil war to defeat the dominant faction, with the intention of backstabbing them as soon as that faction has been dealt with.
If the Socialists win the Civil War, Reed calls for a constitutional convention to transition American society into a Socialist one. He then steps down from his position, citing that not only was he struggling with a terminal illness for some time and that wants to spend his final years with his wife and daughter, but also that he saw his role in the revolution as only leading it to success, but that new leadership was needed to move America forward; this implies that he was planning on stepping down anyways. He then retires from his position, passing the torch to the next generation of Socialists.
How does he operate? Is he charismatic, can he think on his feet?
Yes to all counts. He exploits the collapse of the Progressive movement if the Garner-Wagner bill fails to court Progressives to his cause; this facilitating that Minnesota rises up in rebellion against the Federal government when the war starts. Whatever beating Long takes due to government policies directed against him, he takes the opportunity to grow his own support base. If Long is killed or his more wealthier support base cut off from him via government austerity measures, Reed exploits the political fallout to launch his own insurrection, declaring the Federal government to have betrayed the American people. His exploitation of Long’s assassination is worth mentioning because his speech denouncing the government causes massive terrorism and protest waves to erupt in the South. With regards to thinking on his feet, he prepares for the civil war as soon as he is kicked out if he got elected, and takes every opportunity to ensure his revolution goes forward such as when he exploits the fallout from Long’s death to destabilize the federal government and launch his revolution. And of course, if things are going south for him in the civil war, he can ally with another faction to destroy the stronger faction with the goal of backstabbing them later.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Well he can enact authoritarian methods to win the Civil War such as implementing War Syndicalism and either executing political opponents or placing them in jail for life. His faction commits various war crimes such as the execution of suspected capitalists through the “Red Terror”. If he is elected in the 1936 elections, he can sic the national guard on the far right in the US. Even if the player doesn't have him take the more extreme actions, he still essentially sentences political opponents to forced labour until they are “rehabilitated” and he also uses underhanded means such as court packing and passing legislation via executive orders to ensure his policies can pass. Before the 1936 elections he and his followers use political intimidation to force older politicians to resign so radicals can run for Congress.
However, he does not do anything needlessly cruel. A lot of stuff such as War Syndicalism, and his pre-war actions if in power as president are both framed by the narrative as a Necessary Evil to achieve his goals of bringing socialism to the US and somewhat justified by the state of war that the Combined Syndicates are facing. Furthermore, in-game events note that he himself has reservations about the authoritarianism of the Neo-Communist Vanguard faction of his movement and their plans to create a surveillance program to counter espionage. If he goes with forced labour as the punishment for opposing him politically, it should be noted it’s only until they can be rehabilitated and reintegrated into society. With regards to the war crimes committed by his faction, the events imply that a large chunk of them are outside his control and are a indirect consequence of the radicalization of his base. He himself is characterized as doing all it takes to ensure a better future for the American people through Socialism and genuinely believing in the ideals he champions. There’s also the question of what would have happened had he not fallen terminally ill—would he have stepped down in favor of the next generation or would he have instead chosen to rule as a Lenin or Stalin esque dictator. The game clearly infers that Reed saw his role in the revolution as overseeing its success, but ensuring new leadership succeeds him to lead America into the future, in the event highlighting his resignation as leader. This infers that he was going to step down as soon as he feels that the socialists can safely consolidate power.
He also has a degree of respect for Huey Long as a Worthy Opponent for at least standing up for the American people as indicated by his condemnation of the Federal government if they manage to take Huey out. Of course he could be faking it to gain support in the South in the wake of Huey Long's assassination but there's not too much evidence of this interpretation.
Overall, he’s a textbook Well-Intentioned Extremist, willing to take harsh and terrible means for the greater good.
What’s the competition like?
Jack Reed competes with fellow MB on the other end of the political spectrum Huey Long in order to win the hearts and minds of Americans, and he’s also in competition with the American government, who wants to suppress him before he can rally his supporters to rise up against the government. I should note that you can’t start off playing as Jack Reed or Huey Long and try to consolidate power. You start off playing as the US for the American campaign and you can later choose to side with Reed or Long. Bascically when playing as the US in the leadup to the civil war you have to work to prevent Reed or Long to gain influence. Whomever the government chooses to focus on in suppressing, the other will outplay the government. If Reed’s support base is being suppressed or placated, Long will take advantage, but if Long’s support base is being suppressed or placated, Reed will take advantage to consolidate his own power. Bascically the American government is put in a no win situation, with all efforts to prevent the civil war doomed to failure. For the purpose of our effortpost, if the US government focus their efforts in supporting Long, Reed outplays them by gaining more influence—and potentially flipping Minnesota to Socialist control. This leads to him either being in a better position for when the civil war starts in contrast to the government, Long and the Pacific States, or taking over the resistance to the government altogether if Long is assassinated and inspiring acts of terrorism crippling the Southern US from remnants of the Longists. So unless you go after him directly or find ways to appease his support base, he plays the political events surrounding the repression of Long’s supporters to his advantage—and of course if you do go after him Long will be the one that plays these events like a fiddle, thus ensuring that the second civil war is all but inevitable regardless with the only difference being if it’s the Federal Government vs Reed vs Long vs the Pacific States in a winner takes all slugfest or just the government vs. the guy that isn’t taken out.
In a sense, the option to play as Reed or Long and fight the Federal government and the other radical could be seen as “a player desperate to prevent the civil war ultimately surrendering to the forces that want to enact radical change(Reed or Long) because of how they got played in the end by the radical they could not deal with.
Now the question remains whether Jack Reed stands out in contrast to Huey Long, and this will be why I said this effortpost might be contentious. Huey Long does the same things Reed does in the leadup to the civil war, and has the opportunity to stand out even further because he can consolidate power post-war by using authoritarian force to establish a socially progressive America and ending racism by purging Pelley’s Silver Legion and outplaying the oligarchic War Powers Committee that’s been playing every single side of the civil war so they can come up on top despite nominally pledging allegiance to Long. By contrast Reed gets a Soap Opera Disease and steps down to live out his remaining years with his family if the socialists are victorious.
That said, Reed does stand out from Long in my opinion. Reed can successfully ensure that a state(Minnesota) defects to the Combined Syndicates if the Progressives collapse before the 1936 election and definately before the guns fire all across America. By contrast, most of the states that can pledge allegiance to Huey Long do so during the start of the civil war after driving out government troops. Furthermore, Reed takes a more direct approach to the civil war, taking a direct role in dealing with policies such as what to do with political opponents and enacting War Syndicalism. By contrast, Huey Long, during the civil war, takes a hands off approach to the civil war focusing on selecting the best allies—even if it means allying with Pelley or the WPC for a time until they could be effectively dealt with. Thus you can view Reed’s role in the story as a wartime leader taking a direct role in the war effort and taking harsh measures such as putting political opponents into forced labour until they can be rehabilitated(and that’s the least bad thing he can do to them) if need be to ensure the triumph of socialism; passing the torch to the next generation when his work is done, while Huey Long is a leader that takes a hand off approach to managing the war effort, but consolidates power during peacetime in order to achieve his ideal vision of America as an autocratic, but socially and economically progressive republic through purging the far right and the various oligarchs that he has only used as a means to ascend to power.
Verdict:
Personally, John Reed, who's also one of my favorite characters in this setting, especially with the current update, gets a
from me. I can understand if someone feels that he’s not magnificent enough so I would not be too disappointed if he dosen’t go up. If he does, he goes after Huey Long as he got the characterization needed that made me comfortable with E Ping him with the latest version of the mod.
Oh, and on a humorous note, both Reed and Long know their Star Wars trivia well despite existing well before SW was ever made(and with butterfly effects, might not even be made in this universe), as indicated by this Shout-Out event if Mac Arthur launches his coup against either of them as president.
Mac Arthur: *Marches on Washington
Reed/Long(depending on who is in office): “MY ALLEGIENCE IS TO THE REPUBLIC MACARTHUR, TO DEMOCRACY!
Edited by xie323 on May 30th 2019 at 6:10:23 AM

And again, let’s just stop having this debate. It’s not enjoyable at all.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on May 29th 2019 at 12:53:23 PM