During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Scratch, Grunty, Aggregor
By the way, even with this, he can count. His actual personality as seen during the series is real, and that is the one that matters.
Watch me destroying my country
on Scratch. He presents himself as a magnificent bastard, but he’s not charming enough to fit the criteria. He’s a disgusting asshole who enslaved and tortured a teenager for thousands of years, is extremely lecherous and creepy towards young girls in general, and no one is charmed or swayed by him. His plans and intellect are impressive, as are his skills of manipulation, but he’s too much of a gross creep who everyone dislikes to count. Anyone who’s tricked by him is tricked by a result of their own naïveté, and people cooperate with him for his information, not because they find him likable or compelling. So yeah, solid no.
Scratch explicitly doesn't see anything creepy about it. It comes off as creepy only to Rose, but it's clear that's not Scratch's intention. Anything else is Alternative Character Interpretation.
And the fact that he managed to get everyone to fall into his plan despite them not trusting him is very impressive.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on May 29th 2019 at 11:34:50 AM
Vriska, Terezi, Aradia, and Story!Hussie all see him as creepy, not just Rose, and Scratch perceiving himself as less than a creep doesn’t negate the impression many other characters got from him. Whether or not it’s intentional or he’s legitimately attracted to them, he still is really fucking creepy, in a way that’s clearly intended to be seen as such given who his components are and his treatment of the Handmaid (which I think is the biggest strike against him- it’s absolutely deplorable.)
I, Furudo Erika... have duct tape..!I'm still abstaining on Scratch... However, I'll wait until ~Scraggle made an opinion on him since I don't frigging know Homestuck.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Vriska finds his manipulations annoying to her ego, but she still listens to him. Terezi finds him weird because he told her to call him “Mr. Vanilla Milkshake” as a joke yet still makes contact with him. Hussie is frustrated by his narration because he finds it pretentious. Rose is the only one who sees the undertones, yet still listens to him.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on May 29th 2019 at 11:48:09 AM
Oh! And just a note... Tomorrow I'll be going to visit my own relatives in another island and hopefully I can have a decent reception in there to contact you guys... Don't worry, I'll do my own writeup soon enough.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."No, they all see the intentions. Vriska mentions how creepy he is for constantly talking to teenage girls all the time, Aradia and Terezi discuss how he weirds them out in a way that’s made to allude to his undertones, and Hussie describes him as creepy a *lot.* His commentary when Scratch told the Handmaid the story of the Signless says it all- “He’s keeping little girls locked up and ranting about troll ancestors, I just know it” and “YOU’VE LOCKED UP YOUR LAST JAPANESE SCHOOLGIRL YOU SICK FUCK”.
The villains in Homestuck are more often than not representative of societal ailments. The Condesce deals with class-based oppression and the suffering of the lower class at the hands of the upper class, and Caliborn is representative of rampant sexism and misogyny. Doc Scratch is like, 1/4th Caliborn. He’s a lot older, a lot more intelligent, and a lot less ridiculous so he approaches this sexism differently than Caliborn does, but it’s still there. He constantly enslaves women and maims and abuses teenage girls, and the predatory undertones are reminiscent of Caliborn’s creepy, creepy sexual advances towards Jane and Roxy.
I guess it boils down to that in the end, I can’t see a MB enslaving and abusing a teenage girl, beating her with a broom and teleporting her into space to suffocate without the release of death, hurting her so badly she tries to kill herself constantly. I can’t see an MB having that attitude towards Rose or Vriska, or being part Caliborn, or being at least partially representative of sexism and misogyny.
So uh, nope on Doc Scratch.
I, Furudo Erika... have duct tape..!Scratch isn’t misogynistic. Scratch isn’t sexist. That’s all Alternative Character Interpretation, which is never taken into account for tropes like these.
But in any case, I really don’t feel like having this argument. Let’s just wait for Scraggle to give his opinion.
Won't gonna lie that crossover candidates are honestly fun to propose but I can relate to that and I'm still keeping my own opinion that crossover is rather rare at best.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on May 29th 2019 at 11:48:16 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."It’s not ACI. These qualities of Scratch are very, very heavily alluded to by the story proper. He treats women and men in very different fashions, and enslaves and targets women. He’s part Caliborn, and extraordinarily heavily affiliated with villains that are representative of sexism, like not only Caliborn but also LE, and by extraordinarily heavily affiliated with them I mean he quite literally is them. It’s not ACI just because it isn’t stated explicitly in the comic that “Scratch is a sexist.”
But even if you do deny misogyny or predatory behavior on his part the point still stands that no one is charmed by him and his abuse of the Handmaid is far too heinous for him to count.
I, Furudo Erika... have duct tape..!@Satoshi Bakura What do we mean regarding crossover candidate is actually a breed between Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard. Sorry for the confusion
