During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Having a sore throat on Fasting day kind of sucks... I hope I can recover soon enough
Also @erazor I'm reading Medaka... Hopefully I can get Kumagawa up soon enough.
@Loekman 3 Go ahead with Chase Young!
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on May 23rd 2019 at 10:26:21 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Pretty sure we deemed Chase Young too much of a buffoon to qualify. Or was that Wuya? I mean the dude's serious and a Knight of Cerebus... eh never mind. If Fawful can get approved, I don't see why not. Go ahead.
Alright then, here goes nothing. An effort post of my favorite villain in my childhood; Chase Young from Xiaolin Showdown
What's the Work?
Xiaolin Showdown is a Cartoon Network show that revolves around the four Xiaolin monks collecting the Shen Gong Wu from the Heylin side, starting with Jack Spicer & Wuya before more Heylin bad guys are introduced, the most prominent ones being Chase Young and Hannibal Roy Bean.
I'm only talking about his original incarnation since Xiaolin Chronicles is treated as a different continuity rather than a direct sequel.
What did he do?
1500 years ago, Chase Young used to be a Xiaolin monk who has just defeated Wuya alongside Master Monk Guan and Grand Master Dashi. Moments after, Hannibal Bean appeared and claimed that Guan seeks to overthrow his friend and become the greatest warrior alive unless he drank the Lao Mang Lone soup. Soon after he drank it, Chase turned to the Heylin side and shortly afterwards, betrays Hannibal by sending him straight to the Yin Yang world.
Over the next 1500 years, Chase would travel all over the world, defeating the greatest warriors before enslaving them as his personal jungle cats while also abducting dragons for his Lao Mang Lone soup so as to retain his eternal youth appearance.
In next chronological appearance in the present timeline (his official episode debut), Chase has just won over Guan's personal spear unless he hands over Dojo as part of the recipe for his Lao Mang Lone soup. He keeps his word and hands it over before he fattens up the dragon to be cooked for the soup. When the monks arrived at his lair to challenge him, Chase turns into his lizard form and easily defeats them before Guan arrives to challenge him to a regular showdown in exchange for the monks's freedom. After a strenous fight, Guan ultimately defeats him. Chase keeps his word and lets them all go.
In his next appearance, he begins showing interest in Omi and teach him his own techniques to help defeat the Monster of the Week spider that is currently possessing Clay.
In Year of the Green Monkey, Chase Young manipulates Jack by handing over the Tongue of Saiping and Monkey Staff to him to manipulate the army of Green Monkey so as to get him out of the way (it's stated that prolonged use of the Monkey Staff will make the user more monkey like to the point of eventually losing the ability to speak) and has already claimed the Eagle Scope to make sure that the monks won't combine it with the recently acquired Fountain of Hui for a basically omnipotent knowledge.
In The New Order, Jack Spice has just trapped Chase under the Sphere of Yun and with it, gains control of his personal jungle cats army. After being raided by Jack and his cats, Omi believes that Chase would be a better controller of the cats (a statement voted out by the rest of the monks) and sneaks out to free him from his prison before confronting him and question his motives of freeing him. When the monks arrive and found him alongside Chase, Omi desperately tries to come up with an explanation before Chase challenges him to a Xiaolin Showdown which is implied that he purposely lose to cover up Omi's tracks.
In The Apprentice, Chase offers apprenticeship to either Jack Spicer or Katnappe for whoever gets the next Shen Gong Wu. It never really goes anywhere and despite them being apprentice at different times, both of them eventually loses the title as one.
It is eventually revealed in Something Jermaine that Chase has personally recruited Jermaine, promoting him as a Wudai Warrior before offering apprenticeship if he gives him the Golden Finger. At the end of the showdown (involving a four-way showdown between Omi, Jermain, Jack Spicer and Tubbumura), Omi boast that he finally lost after losing his apprentice but then Chase reveals that he was testing him.
In Dangerous Minds, after a group of giant spiders have been set loose and threatens to destroy the world, both Omi and Chase, the only ones who escaped agree to work together to stop them by combining the Fountain of Hui and Eagle Scope but swore to Omi to only find the way to defeat the spiders and not to eliminate evil. Omi later mentions that he peeked a bit on how to destroy it but Chase anticipates this and uses the Reversing Mirror to make Omi see how to destroy good instead.
Chase Young's plans come to the ultimate fruition in the Season 2 finale when the Yin-Yang Yo-Yo has been revealed. While the monks were fighting Jack and his minions, Chase casually switched the Yo-Yo with a fake one that Jack claims. Afterwards, he went to the Xiaolin temple to send Master Fung to the Yin-Yang World and shortly afterwards, knocked out the Xiaolin monks before using the Wushan Geyser to erase their memories while framing Jack for causing all this. After Omi heads out on his own and learns that his friends are kidnapped by Jack to be tickled tortured for information of the Wu vault, he goes to Chase to help free his friends from control which he eagerly agreed. While the Omi along with the transformed Jungle Cats decimates Jack and his minions, Chase pretends to acquire the Yo-Yo from Jack before "giving" him the Yo-Yo to retrieve Master Fung from the Yin-Yang World. But it turns out to be a trick as it's later revealed that without it's counterpart the Yang Yo-Yo, Omi's chi would reverse and eventually turned into the Heylin side. Chase officially names Omi as his apprentice and with it, plunges the world into a thousand years of darkness.
In the next episode, Chase has Omi attack the Xiaolin temple to retrieve a couple of Shen Gong Wu's with the most prominent being the Serpent's Tail that would restore Wuya's full body back. However, he does not restore her to full power, as he is fully aware that she is going to backstab him. And later when it seems that Omi's good chi is restored and is on the Xiaolin side again, Chase showed him a vision about him pledging his loyalty to the Heylin warlord and even though he said it when Omi isn't really in the right state of mind, he reluctantly stays by his side and eventually took away his powers and reduce him to one of his jungle cats, plunging the world into further darkness.
In the final 3-partner (or the start of the third season), Chase has the Chi creature previously trapped in the Sphere of Yun freed to reclaim the Chi of all the monks before enslaving them under his control. After they're all freed (by drinking the Chi bottle), Raimundo and the rest of the Xiaolin monks challenged Chase to a regular showdown, Omi's freedom for the Xiaolin's eternal loyalty. The Xiaolin monks won and Chase keeps his word and frees Omi, returning the world back to it's normal state. And this is the last time that Chase would ever be a major threat as his role eventually gets taken by Hannibal Bean but even then, unlike Jack or Wuya he remains a consistent threat throughout the seasons.
In season 3, he tries stopping the Xiaolin monks from getting the Bird of Paradise, informs Omi about the other Heylin forces infiltrating the Xiaolin temple to steal the Shen Gong Wu, uses the Eagle Scope on the T-Rex to give it sentinence, fought off both Hannibal and Wuya when they tried to take advantage of his weakened state during the Heylin Eclipse, and in the last present scene before the ending, successfully raided the Xiaolin temple and stole a couple of Wu. In the ending after time is restored back to the present, Chase is part of the group of Heylin villains that appear at the front before the Xiaolin monks head onwards to confront them.
How magnificent is he?
Chase Young is a very charismatic and honorable Heylin warlord and despite being the bad guy, he is nothing but courteous and polite to the monks especially Omi and whenever he lost the showdown, he keeps his word and complies to their demands even though he could easily screw them over.
Furthermore, he is very intelligent and manipulative as always find ways that he could win Omi over on his side, for example, he helps Omi as much as possible whether it him by eliminating other threats, help cover his track, or giving him a warning regarding the Heylin's other actions. My personal best example of this is during the season 2 finale where tricked Jack into retrieving the wrong Yo-Yo before framing him for supposedly trapping Master Fung into the Ying-Yang world and tricking him into succumbing to the Heylin side and when he turns good, he took advantage of Omi's adherence to his word by showing him a vision when he pledges himself to Chase Young.
And lastly, unlike both Jack or Wuya who succumbed into a big Villain Decay by season 3, Chase remains a consistent threat to the Xiaolin monks to the point of sharing the Big Bad Ensemble spot with Hannibal Bean and he is never truly defeated as his last scene before the time displacement is him triumphing over the monks once the eclipse has ended.
How much of a bastard is he?
Honorable and affable as he is, he is still a Heylin warlord who desires to take over the world and freely admits to being the bad guy. Furthermore, he also tries to cook Dojo alive to make the Lao Mang Lone soup to retain his youthful appearance and given what happened to Omi when he re-pledge his loyalty to him, it is clear that after he defeated the greatest warriors, he enslaved them and is transformed into his personal jungle cats. And he is utterly rude to Jack Spicer and his wannabe minions, calling them insects.
At the same time though, he never goes too far in bastardry as he never goes into personal cruelty aside from the typical Take Over the World that the other Heylin villains do.
Final Verdict?
Out of all the 4 main Big Bad Ensemble, Chase Young is probably the only villain that I personally see to count as one, Jack is an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain, Wuya maybe would qualify if the series ends at season 1 but Villain Decay on subsequent seasons completely eliminates that possibility, and Hannibal despite the show trying to build him up as the big threat, ended up being a Smug Snake who never succeeds at anything.
Overall, I would to give my big
for Chase.
Edited by Loekman3 on May 24th 2019 at 4:06:36 PM
Yes to Chase, but The Bad Guy Wins isn't an automatic qualifier just so you know.
Alright since reception for him proved to be overwhelmingly positive, it's time to do my own write-up:
- Xiaolin Showdown: Once the greatest Xiaolin master to have ever lived, Chase Young was tempted by Hannibal Roy Bean into drinking the Lao Mang Lone soup which gives him eternal youth in exchange for corrupting his soul to the Heylin side. Betraying his benefactor, Chase spent 1500 years honing his own skills while at the same time, defeat the world's greatest warriors and enslaving them as his personal jungle cats. Seeking world domination, Chase saw great interest in Omi, whom he constantly helped deal with other threats to the point that the Xiaolin monk begins to trust him while manipulating him to the Heylin side at the same time. Chase eventually tricked Omi into defecting to his side by trapping Master Fung into the Ying-Yang world, forcing Omi to use the Ying Yo-Yo to rescue him, unaware that his good chi will be left behind. Even after Omi reverts back to the Xiaolin side, Chase took advantage of Omi's adherence to his words by showing him a vision of his Heylin self pledging his loyalty to him, causing Omi to reluctantly remain by his side. When the Xiaolin monks defeats him in a showdown, Chase accepts his loss and releases Omi from his grasp. A ruthless, yet charismatic and honorable Heylin warlord, Chase Young stood out as of the Xiaolin's greatest foe, never being truly defeated in the end despite suffering numerous setbacks.
Edited by Loekman3 on May 24th 2019 at 9:52:04 PM
Gonna Suggest a cut. I found this on the GI Joe IDW YMMV
- Magnificent Bastard: Krake, who managed to win the Cobra Civil War by having Oda Satori assassinated and replaced with Zartan, thus adding all the Arashikage's kills to his total.
From Ravoks Summary of the charachter in his EP of the first cobra commander, I'm gonna assume he's way to evil?
Edited by Kylotrope on May 24th 2019 at 12:18:41 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereThis writeup? Pending for far, far too long, IMO
- The Queen's Thief: Irene, also known as Attolia, appears to be a shy, dim girl, which hides her calculating mind. Following her brother's death in a suspicious accident, she is married off to a contemptuous noble, only to dispatch him on their wedding day via clever use of poison. Using her jewelry to buy the support of soldiers and mercenaries, when Irene's barons attempt to choose a husband for her, she has him summarily killed in front of them, announcing she will rule in her own right and choose her own way. Ruthlessly ruling her own domain, she plays the ambassador Nahuseresh, allowing him to think he controls her while setting him up to his defeat, even arranging for the fall of his army to strengthen her own position.

I would like to ask, has Chase Young from Xiaolin Showdown ever been discussed before? He looks to be a good candidate of an MB and if nobody else reserved him I could try and do my very first EP for him.