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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#9852: May 21st 2019 at 1:25:56 PM

43110 teleports behind a bad entry

"Nothing personnel kid."

Deleted

-

I hope you've enjoyed me resurrecting a dead meme.

...Alright I'll stop now.

Edited by PolarPhantom on May 21st 2019 at 9:26:14 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#9853: May 21st 2019 at 2:43:09 PM

Speaking of resurrection....

What is the work?

The Last Temptation of Christ is a 1988 film based on the 1955 Greek novel. To explain the film, it's somewhat of a twist on the typical Passion Play where Jesus here is depicted as a conflicted man who is tempted into abandoning his duty as the Messiah in order to pursue an ordinary life.

Who is it?

The Prince of Darkness Satan himself. Satan, the Archangel, appears to Jesus in the wilderness and much like in the biblical story, he tempts Jesus here by trying to appeal to his human nature. He takes the form of a cobra, a lion, and later a wall of fire. After Jesus refuses each of his temptations, Satan vows that they would see each other again, and dissipates.

So, eventually, Jesus arrives in Jerusalem and after some scuffles, he is sentenced to be crucified. While he was hanging on the cross, he notices a young girl looking directly at him. She identifies herself as his "guardian angel" who had been sent to remind Jesus that God was "The God of mercy and not punishment." As such, Jesus had suffered enough, and that he still had God's love. The girl then removes his crown of thorns and the nails from his wrists and ankles and takes him to be married to Mary Magdalene. After the two had consummated their marriage, Mary is abruptly killed. The guardian angel comforts him and tells him that there were other women out there to fill his heart. Jesus then remarried, and he had several wives and children.

Years later, on Jesus' deathbed, he calls his remaining disciples to his side, and he gets chewed out by Judas for his betrayal. When Jesus explained that his guardian angel saved him from his painful execution, Judas reveals that she was in fact Satan who then reminds Jesus that he did promise that they'd meet again. Realizing his mistake, Jesus crawls out of his deathbed and crawls through the burning rubble that was formerly Jerusalem (around the time of the Jewish Rebellion), and prays to God to allow him to be the Messiah once more.

Jesus finds himself back on the cross having conquered the final temptation and dies in utter triumph saying "It is accomplished" as the film burns away.

Is he charismatic? Intelligent?

Yes. Satan takes different forms as a means of appealing to Jesus' human side by tearing into his many doubts about himself such as by telling him that he truly did desire power. In the film, Satan makes enough out of his various observations, he very well nearly succeeds at preventing Jesus from sacrificing himself.

As the guardian angel, he appears as supportive of Jesus and even consoles him when his wife died suddenly. It is Faux Affably Evil, but he otherwise doesn't go that far with it.

Is he a bastard?

Well, he is trying to prevent a sacrifice that would otherwise cause mankind to be tossed into eternal damnation, which is definitely bad.

Too much of a bastard?

Unlike with several other takes on the character, this version of Satan at least doesn't go as far in monstrosity and depravity. He does tell Jesus to "die like a man" but aside from this, he isn't overly heinous in his scheming.

Verdict

Unsure. Thoughts?

Edited by AustinDR on May 23rd 2019 at 6:53:38 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#9854: May 21st 2019 at 3:27:42 PM

Need to think on him...

Out of curiosity, any guys have an opinion on Susie from Kirby series? Tags @Scraggle and @Doc Sharp

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on May 21st 2019 at 5:30:35 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9855: May 21st 2019 at 6:53:27 PM

Provided Satan doesn't just across as slimy in his scheming I'm fine with it.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#9859: May 21st 2019 at 7:49:48 PM

There's a version of Satan that is an MB? Interesting.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9860: May 21st 2019 at 8:31:15 PM

Sure to Satan.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#9861: May 21st 2019 at 9:30:14 PM

I'll say aye to Satan.

Susie? I'd probably say no. Her big moment is pretty much rendered moot the moment Star Dream achieves independence and the spotlight's stolen from her quick. She doesn't stand out enough, especially compared to, say, Magolor who has pretty much the entire plot under his control.

Edited by Scraggle on May 21st 2019 at 9:31:19 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#9863: May 22nd 2019 at 12:20:02 AM

Hey guys just want to let you all know that I'll be going on a trip to New York tomorrow and will be there for a week. I will pop-in to vote for candidates, but don't expect any EP from me during that time.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#9864: May 22nd 2019 at 6:42:40 AM

[tup] for Satan.

Right. So DemonDuck is a birfday boy today. So he's getting more confetti shoved in his face like in the Complete Monster cleanup forum.

-explodes confetti poppers everywhere-

So we're gonna talk about Scrags' latest story, Mirror World.

Mirror World is a story about a teenager named Vita who gets stuck inside a strange world known as Inoptica after traveling through a portal within a bizarre mirror. Once there, she soon finds herself caught in the middle of a conflict between four different Houses—Dawn, Dusk, Midnight, and Noon—and has to learn to adjust to the weird world around while struggling with her personal dilemmas and the possibility of losing her identity, all while trying to fit in with House Noon. Also there's a strange Eldritch Abomination named "the krylyrk" hunting her for some unknown reason.

All right, so it turns out that the krylyrk is not only Cheshire, a mysterious entity who's been texting Vita throughout the story, but it is also responsible for all the events within the story. It basically used the four Houses as its own personal playground so that it would be able to possess Vita, transform Inoptica into a Wonderland, turn all the inhabitants human again, and it would be able to make everyone happy.

The characters immediately start complaining and lashing out at it, and Zeil tries to kill the krylyrk for all the trouble it has caused.

The krylyrk has a genuine breakdown, not being able to predict that everyone would be so angry at it because it finally made everyone human again. Of course, at this point in the story, thousands have died or been tormented, and the krylyrk is the one who trapped all of these people in Inoptica in the first place because it just wanted to stop being lonely. Long story short, Vita manages to convince the krylyrk to peacefully return everyone back to their time periods in the human world, and the krylyrk accepts its defeat gracefully.

Sooooooooo...think we have a near miss here. The krylyrk is a bastard—obviously. It manipulated the events of the entire story for its own selfish reasons, and thousands upon thousands died in the process. It's also definitely magnificent, considering everything the krylyrk planned out went exactly the way it wanted to go.

Except towards the end.

I know that obviously a Magnificent Bastard can be defeated and can lose at the end—this trope isn't just for The Bad Guy Wins. But the problem I've been juggling around with is how the krylyrk reacts when, after possessing Vita, everyone around it starts screaming at it and blaming it for what it's done. The krylyrk had no backup plan for this; the krylyrk didn't expect this to happen. So when it does happen, the krylyrk can't really do much of anything but just stammer and mournfully look at everyone with confusion, unable to mentally grasp why everyone is so frustrated at it.

I think the biggest problem with the krylyrk is that, looking back at it, it's more of a very, very naïve, lonely, Innocently Insensitive deity that was willing to let innocents die in order to get what it wanted, than a crafty, cunning, strategic Magnificent Bastard who had a backup plan should anything go wrong.

So, for me personally, after thinking on it...no one counts from Mirror World. As an MB, anyway.

If we're talkin' about a CM, however...

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9865: May 22nd 2019 at 6:46:52 AM

yeah, the fundamental problem? Everything about its plan was wrong. it's a lonely, pitiful creature by the end, who causes massive amounts of unnecessary problems because it didn't get what it was doing. No MB's in MW.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9866: May 22nd 2019 at 7:03:30 AM

No worries, sounds like a hell of a villain either way and I look forward to checking it out cool

[up][up] Has Duck ever been by here? [lol]

[down] Lit, more for me.

Edited by 43110 on May 22nd 2019 at 10:20:07 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#9867: May 22nd 2019 at 7:11:51 AM

[up] I don't know. I'm barely here myself to be honest.

Feel free to smother yourself in the confetti if he doesn't show up.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
MagicalMarie Buried games enthusiast from In a cake Since: Feb, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Buried games enthusiast
#9869: May 22nd 2019 at 6:51:15 PM

I would bump for Curly... Except that anyone that played the game will know that she stops being one of the bad guys and joins the party by the time Loki is killed.

Edited by MagicalMarie on May 22nd 2019 at 10:51:45 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9870: May 22nd 2019 at 7:47:26 PM

That's okay, we're pretty loose on the 'bastard' criteria as long as they have a stint as a villain/being significantly morally dubious. Also, I think it's worth noting that Elfen proposed the version of Curly from the anime based on the game, not the game itself.

Is there anything else to be concerned about with that one?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9871: May 22nd 2019 at 8:15:22 PM

Also, someone mentioning Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the CM thread made me check the YMMV page and find this:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Dear Lord, George Corley Wallace. As mentioned above, the story hinges on Wallace hanging on to his paltry nine electoral votes to either force the Democrats and Republicans to make a "corrupt bargain" to get around his roadblock, or fail and cause one of the two hapless running-mates to ascend to the Presidency instead; either way setting the stage for him to make a comeback in '76. He succeeds in both plans, as bi-partisan scheming first allows Spiro Agnew to become President, then, after he proves to be an utter disaster, forces the Congress to awkwardly remove him and replace him with a retired General, ultimately leaving both parties discredited — exactly as planned. Wallace meanwhile quietly makes peace with the Alabama NAACP and slides away from his segregationalist past. (This happened in OTL.) He runs for President again in 1976, becoming the front-runner after baiting Spiro Agnew into attacking him on his handicap, which he parlays into a dramatic speech about feeling the pain of the common man. Wallace ends up winning the Democratic nomination after allying with Ron Dellums, of all people, and chooses the very man who stood against him in the "Stand at the Schoolhouse Door", Nick Katzenbach, as his running mate. As of the last update, he wins. Yes, all of the chaos of the past four years in this story is the old bastard's plan working.

Really can't stand the work and I'd be surprised if someone counts but if anyone wants to check and see they're welcome to.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#9872: May 23rd 2019 at 10:21:00 AM

  • The Last Temptation of Christ: Satan, the Archangel, is a manipulative entity conspiring to prevent Jesus Christ's sacrifice and plunge mankind into eternal damnation. Quietly observing Christ throughout his life, Satan attempts to appeal to Christ's human nature by offering him power and a chance at a normal life. When Christ is crucified, Satan takes the form of an angel and removes him from the cross after claiming that he wasn't truly the Messiah. Convincing Christ to marry Mary Magdalene as well as to pursue other women when she abruptly dies, Satan nearly succeeds at dismantling God's divine plan as the elderly Christ approached death.

MagicalMarie Buried games enthusiast from In a cake Since: Feb, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Buried games enthusiast
#9873: May 23rd 2019 at 10:34:31 AM

In that case, it should be specified that the Curly we're talking about is the one from the anime, I guess. Something like Anime Curly.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#9874: May 23rd 2019 at 10:37:37 AM

[up] sure... I'll see what I can do.

I'll do her writeup once my birthday hits. I might gonna see the game if its available on North American version although it is rather unlikely. And I'll echo what 43110 said, a MB can also have a Heel–Face Turn at the end of the day.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9875: May 23rd 2019 at 6:23:07 PM

Elfen did note it was the anime version he was talking about in his EP.


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