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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9551: May 10th 2019 at 5:58:32 PM

Alright:

  • Not sure on Kreese, if he's making PIV jokes all the time, I'm starting to question how much I can infer that he must not be a bigot to allow minorities and girls in the dojo when he might just be a prejudiced practitioner of Pragmatic Villainy.
  • Darktail I'll give a yeah for now, I've heard some concerns voiced in the past but it seems like Klavice is the only one who's read a substantial portion of the series enough to have a conclusive opinion. Worse comes to worst, we can re-evaluate later if someone takes issue.
  • Yes to Loki.
  • Yes to Jérémie.
  • Austin, I'm digging your writeups but please pull The Chessmaster pothole from the Gnome, his name can have a different one if you want but I don't like using that particular trope since it can apply to any MB.

Glad to seem I'm coming home to a bumping thread!

[down] Anything you'd like mayne smile

Edited by 43110 on May 10th 2019 at 9:05:18 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#9553: May 10th 2019 at 6:52:28 PM

Actually, I personally have a different Concern with Reese.

From my memory In the Second film in the opening Reese tried Choking Johnny Continuing even after being told he might kill him just becuase Johnny lost the match, Wich is VERY petty. And Looked Scared shitless when Myagi started Repeating Kreeses "No Mercy" philosophy back to him after Beating him(Before it turns out Myagi was just trolling him).

I'd Persoanlly be willing to let that Slide given the Large Time Skip between the Second film and the Show, as he could be an Example of Developing into an MB even though he didn't start out one

But I still have to ask if he has moments like those here.

Edited by Kylotrope on May 10th 2019 at 6:53:31 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#9554: May 10th 2019 at 6:55:22 PM

What's the work?

Moriarty is a 2014 Sherlock Holmes pastiche by Anthony Horowitz, his second after 2011's The House of Silk. In this novel, taking place after Moriarty's demise, an American detective named Fredrick Chase goes to London to prevent notorious criminal Clarence Devereux from taking over London's criminal underworld. He is assisted by Athelney Jones, Scotland Yard detective and Sherlock Holmes fanboy.

Who is he? What does he do?

In a twist, it is revealed at the end of the novel that Moriarty survived and adopted the identity of Fredrick Chase. In chronological order:

James Moriarty was born to a fairly normal family, and grew up excelling in mathematics. Eventually, he became a private tutor, and one of his students asked him to help him out(he was indebted to his gang and feared they would murder him). Moriarty reluctantly helped him out, and while he did so he observed the criminal underworld. Deciding that he could improve it using his logical and mathematical skills, Moriarty turned to a life of crime and began amassing followers for his organization.

However, the aforementioned Clarence Devereux, jealous of his success, came to London and began to turn Moriarty's followers against him. Eventually, Moriarty's only followers were master sniper Sebastian Moran and a teenage boy named Perry. Moriarty had an American named Jonathan Pilgrim act as a mole inside Devereux's organization to provide information, but eventually Pilgrim was figured out and murdered.

Moriarty, enraged at this, formulated a plan to fake his death, adopt a new identity, and join forces with Scotland Yard in order to help topple Devereux. First, he put papers containing important information for the police in Pilgrim's pocket, and over a few months, Moriarty attacked Holmes, making him appear to be a much greater threat than he really is. As a result of this, Holmes informed Scotland Yard of Moriarty's henchmen, not knowing they were now in Devereux's employ, and they were all arrested. Moriarty then arranged a trap for Holmes at the Reichenback Falls, having Perry lure Watson away and ambushing Holmes at the falls. Holmes quickly defeated Moriarty and threw him to the bottom of the Reichenback Falls, but Moriarty survived and Moran wounded Holmes, with Holmes also faking his death. After crawling out of the water, Moriarty killed a fisherman who resembled him and left a coded letter in his pocket.

In the novel, as Fredrick Chase, Moriarty meets Athelney Jones and is impressed by his intelligence in cracking the coded letter and figuring out information about him. The coded letter leads Moriarty and Jones to the Cafe Royal, and Moriarty has Perry pretend to be one of Devereux's henchmen in order to lure Jones to the house of "Scotchy" Lavelle, one of Devereux's associates. With Jones, Moriarty manages to gain access to Lavelle's house and stays there for a while. In the night, Perry enters the house, and he and Moriarty kill Lavelle's servants and mistress. Moriarty then interrogates and tortures Lavelle, learning that Devereux is working at the American embassy and letting Perry kill Lavelle after he gets the information he needs.

Next, Moriarty has Perry and Moran plant a bomb inside Scotland Yard to destroy the telegraph system, since Moriarty will be exposed if the agency he claims to a part of(Pinkerton Detective Agency) is called. The bomb kills three officers and Jones' secretary, and Moriarty makes sure than Perry and Moran come in a recognizable vehicle in order to direct Jones to the embassy. Eventually, Jones figures out that Devereux is working for the U.S. ambassador in order to take advantage of diplomatic immunity, and formulates a plan to bring him down. Devereux is brought down, but while he is being hauled off, Moriarty reveals his true identity to Jones and shoots him in the head. Moran then kills the other officers on the scene, and Moriarty drives the carriage to a wide-open park, where he brings out Devereux. Moriarty reveals to Devereux that he intends to take over his criminal organization in America and demands that he give him every bit of information he can about the American criminal underworld. Then, Moriarty, Moran, and Perry ride off into the distance towards America.

Is he intelligent? Charming? Thinks on his feet?

Absolutely. Moriarty is a very good planner, and managed to win over a large amount of followers. Even though he lost many of his followers to Devereux, he still manages to bring Devereux down and is well on his way to becoming a powerful criminal mastermind again at the end. He is not overconfident; he admits that his plans are not guaranteed to succeed, and had Moran as backup at the Falls.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

Moriarty ratchets up a fairly reasonable bodycount throughout the story. While Lavelle may not have been innocent, his servants and mistress were, as well as the police officers, secretary, and Jones, so I'd say Moriarty is enough of a bastard.

That said, all of his crimes were accomplished for a purpose, including his torture of Lavelle, and he despises needless cruelty(he is disturbed at Perry's casual sadism and expresses disdain towards Devereux's brutality a few times). Plus, Reverend Charles Fitzsimmons, the main villain of The House of Silk and a listed CM, is far worse than Moriarty, and Moriarty even helps Holmes and Watson bring Fitzsimmons down out of disgust for him.

Conclusion?

I would give a yes to the good Professor.

Edited by falcontalons on May 11th 2019 at 4:25:27 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#9558: May 10th 2019 at 7:22:16 PM

[tup] to Moriarty. Is this story in continuity with House of Silk, BTW?

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 10th 2019 at 7:23:45 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Lymantria Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph from Toronto Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
#9560: May 10th 2019 at 7:27:12 PM

[tup] to Moriarty, unless torture disqualifies him.

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9561: May 10th 2019 at 7:36:01 PM

Also I’ve been asked by a few people about the administrivia page we had planned so I’ll post about it here: I called for the mods to move my starting post and the header to one such but haven’t heard anything for a few days. I think Septimus and Fighteer have dropped by here the most so I’ll open the floor to them or any other mod who wouldn’t mind swinging by to clarify if it’s been decided to be unneeded or if I was just mistaken about the process to ask for it. Thanks in advance!

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#9562: May 10th 2019 at 8:13:56 PM

Aright so I’ve just finished final exams of my last semester in college so to celebrate I have a special EP for you all and given that Mothers Day is around the corner I felt that this candidate should be female. So I tried to find any potential female candidates to discuss and found this unapproved entry on The Tick (2016).

  • Magnificent Bastard: Ms. Lint ascends to the position in Season 2, upon realizing she can wipe out all her competition with impunity simply by posing as a hero herself and invoking the 28th Amendment. Even after Arthur and the Tick catch on, they're powerless to stop her as AEGIS has an ironclad policy against unwillingly outing heroes' identities, and can only make an appeal toward Becoming the Mask. And despite some wavering from those arguments, she ultimately stays a villain and uses the various other villainous plots going on as a distraction to steal all of AEGIS' gear, ending the season as the unquestioned Big Bad of the city.

Luckily I’ve watched the show and since we discussed it over at the CM forum (we approved 2 baddies from there) allow me to get straight to the point and EP her here.

Who is She? What Has She Done?

Ms. Lint is a powerful super villain who can control electricity who operates in The City and was The Dragon to The Terror before leaving him at the mercy of the heroes when she realizes that the Terror doesn’t have any grand ambitious plans other than reek havoc just for the sake of it, not to mention his plans were falling apart.

Now making a name for herself in Season 2, Lint takes up the moniker Joan of Ark and joint AEIGIS as a superhero. However this was all part of a plan to eliminate all the criminals competition so that she and her organization can take over the criminal underworld. However when people are starting to believe that Joan and Lint are the same person, she would eliminate her own organization to successfully deterring public suspicions away from her.

She would eventually become the most popular superhero in The City and becoming loved by the public. When The Tick and Arthur try to expose her as the super villain Lint, she invokes the 28th Amendment which declares that people can’t forcibly expose superheroes identities to the public thus, much to Tick and Arthur’s dismay and Lint’s satisfaction.

She would ally herself with AEIGIS Agent Hobbes helping him in his plans to rid the world of super-powered people or as Hobbes calls them Categories. However this was all just part of her plan to steal all of AEGIS weaponry and technology right under Hobbes nose and completely gets away with it before abandoning him to the heroes thus cementing herself as the most successful villain on the show.

Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?

As an experienced criminal and super villain Ms. Lint know how important it is to infiltrate AEIGIS and use their resources to eliminate all her criminal competition and steal all of their gear once she has no use for them. She also exploits the good publicity that superheroes have on the public so no one would know that she’s really a super villain and exploits the 28th Amendment so that Tick and Arthur can’t expose her. Overall she’s both intelligent and charismatic enough to pass.

What’s the Competition Like?

Lint is by far the most savvy and successful villain in the show by far. Other candidates include the Terror and Hobbes but in the end she has outplayed each of them, abandoning The Terror to his well deserved fate when she realizes that he has no ambitious plan other the reek terror and manipulates Hobbes into believing she’s working for him only to steal all of his tech before leaving him to his own well deserved fate. In the end she has outplayed all her competition leaving her as the most successful villain in the show.

Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?

Okay so she is an superpower criminal who has infiltrates a superhero organization just to eliminate her competition and steal all their gear, has no problems killing people to get what she want, killing fellow crime lord Ramses herself, is implied to manipulated Overkill into falling in love with her before leaving him at the mercy of the Terror and takes pride in her status as a super villain. So yeah she’s a bitch.

That said she never to too awful to be desqualified. She shows disgust at the Terror when she learns that he only want to reek havoc For the Evulz, showing that she commits crimes for a greater purpose, like power and control, contemplates on wether she wants to genuinely reform at one poitn, does allow The Tick and Arthur help Lostercules after she arrested her, and is disturbed when Superian considers destroying the world just because the world doesn’t like him anymore. So yeah she has a balance.

Final Verdict

I’ll leave it to you guys

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#9563: May 10th 2019 at 8:30:50 PM

Aww Dammit I was thinking about doing this. Oh well, Didn't announce anything so it's no one's fault. Just....Sigh.

Good job on the EP G.

[tup] to Lint.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#9566: May 10th 2019 at 9:00:48 PM

Yes to Lint. Anyway, here's my writeup on Juliet. (Also, since the main page marks all info about her being the mastermind as spoilers, I'll just mark her identity as spoilers as well.)

  • Orwell: Juliet Kerrington is a member of the activist group, Thought, and the true mastermind behind the bombings throughout Bonton. Finding out about Orwell through Abraham Goldfels, the deceased leader of Thought, Juliet plots to shutdown the program. While impersonating Goldfels, Juliet convinces Nina to plant bombs throughout Bonton. Later, she sends the investigator and Symes on a goose chae by making them believe that Goldfels is the mastermind behind the bombings before later leading them to find out that Goldfels died months prior to the bombings, letting them know that Orwell leads the government to make rash decisions before getting the full story. On the final day, Juliet argues to the investigator about how flawed a system Orwell is as it easily leads to innocent people being wrongly convicted, pointing out how the investigator saw its flaws first hand. Depending on player choices, Juliet potentially succeeds in convincing the investigator to lead to Orwell being shut down, leading Thought to be promoted to a major political party within The Nation.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 10th 2019 at 12:01:06 PM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#9567: May 10th 2019 at 11:12:07 PM

Anyway, got two JoJo villains who I believe are potential qualifiers.

What’s the work?

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Battle Tendency is the second part of the long running series, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. In Part 2, Joseph Joestar finds out about an ancient race of superhumans known as the Pillar Men. The three remaining Pillar Men (well, four, but one of them was defeated fairly early in the story) are searching for the Red Stone of Aja, to become the ultimate life forms, along with allowing them to no longer be harmed by the sun, their main real weakness. The Big Bad of the part, Kars, I intend to EP in time (albeit, I’m kinda on the fence for whether or not his cruelty and breakdowns are too mitigating) but one of his subordinates I feel more confident in.

Who is he? What does he do?

Esidisi is Kars' best friend and the second highest ranked Pillar Men. Prior to the story, when Kars announced his ambitions to the other Pillar Men to become the ultimate life forms and rule the planet, Esidisi was the only Pillar Men who stood by him, and helped Kars kill the Pillar Men who attacked them. He and Kars then took two baby Pillar Men (Wamuu and Santana) to raise as minions to help them. Esidisi, Kars, and Wamuu killed any Ripple/Hamon users who opposed them before going in a deep slumber. Upon awakening thousands of years later, and after Wamuu defeats Joseph and Caesar, Esidisi, along with Wamuu, place poison rings inside Joseph which will kill him in a month if Joseph doesn’t take the antidote from their rings within that time.

Esidisi’s magnificence however comes into play during his brief time as an Arc Villain. While Joseph and Caesar are training to strengthen their Hamon under Lisa Lisa, Esidisi finds out that Lisa Lisa is in possession of the Red Stone of Aja. He heads to her island, kills Loggins when he tries to stop Esidisi by targeting his lungs (good breathing is crucial for Hamon, so interrupting it makes it nearly impossible to use properly) and attempts to obtain Aja, but is confronted by Joseph. Esidisi gets his arm severed and disintegrated by Joseph wrapping a string soaked with vegetable oil around it, and sending Hamon through it. Esidisi reacts by pretending to bawl in an undignified manner to throw Joseph off as Joseph expected Esidisi to get angered.

After calming down, Esidisi reveals that he knew from the start that Joseph was trying to get him angry in an attempt to throw him off, reciting Sun Tzu just as Joseph did previously. He praises Joseph for his tactics, stating he finds him a Worthy Opponent, and takes the arm of the deceased Loggins as his own to replace the one Joseph destroyed. Esidisi then starts messing with Joseph’s head, even using Joseph’s trademark predicting what the opponent’s next line will be on him. This led Joseph to attack recklessly with his Clacker Volley, something Esidisi avoids with ease, and leads Joseph open to Esidisi shooting his veins out and injecting boiling blood into Joseph (The only reason Joseph survived was due to a mask Lisa Lisa placed on him prior. Otherwise, our hero would have died then and there)

When Joseph attempts to shrink his hat into string to wrap around Esidisi’s body, Esidisi in turn reveals that during the whole conversation, he’s been having veins shoot from his feet, hidden through the spiked pit they’re fighting on. (Joseph can harmlessly walk on the spikes due to Hamon, and Esidisi’s body handles them completely fine) He destroys the strings and surrounded Joseph with veins, ready to inject the burning blood into Joseph’s body. Fortunately, Joseph revealed that his plans indeed went deeper than Esidisi’s, as the strings Esidisi destroyed were attached to a second layer of strings, too thin for Esidisi to see. Joseph than wraps the strings around Esidisi’s body, sends Hamon through him, and destroys him.

...Except not really. Turns out Esidisi’s plans went deeper after all. Joseph’s Hamon was strong enough to destroy Esidisi’s body, but not his brain. After seemingly dying, Esidisi has his brain attach to Joseph’s shirt, and when Joseph chats Suzi Q, a regular human whose Lisa Lisa’s servant, Esidisi’s brain attaches itself on to her, possessing her. While possessing Suzi Q, Esidisi takes the Red Stone of Aja, and mails it to Switzerland for Kars to pick up. (Kars and Esidisi previously agreed that’s where they would meet when Esidisi picks up the stone, but Esidisi’s body was destroyed so...yeah).

When confronted by Joseph, Lisa Lisa, and Caesar, Esidisi stalls the three to give more time for the stone to reach Kars, taking advantage into how they wouldn’t kill an innocent. (Joseph tries to bluff Esidisi into getting out of the way, but Esidisi sees through it with ease) Esidisi then attempts to detonate Suzi Q’s body by raising his blood too hot for her body to handle so that his boiling blood will splash all over Caesar, Joseph, and Lisa Lisa, killing them. However, Joseph thinks of a plan for him and Caesar to remove Esidisi from Suzi Q’s body without damaging her by sending hamon of opposite polarities simultaneously. Esidisi’s brain is then disintegrated by the sun. Caesar condems Esidisi for cowardly techniques, but Joseph shows respect for Esidisi, being dedicated to aiding his allies to the point where he’d throw away both his pride and his life for the sake of the Pillar Men’s goals.

How do his actions show him to be a Magnificent Bastard?

Esidisi is cunning and suave, having a playful (albeit malicious) attitude like Joseph’s, and, while not to the extent of Wamuu, has genuine respect for Joseph. He’s one of the few antagonists in Part 2 to outmatch Joseph in a battle of wits (while Joseph won the fight, Esidisi got what the Pillar Men wanted in the long run) and earns Joseph’s respect for his dedication to the Pillar Men’s cause. Similar case to how another MB, Kisame, earned Might Guy’s respect by showing dedication to the cause of his allies, and giving them an upper hand despite losing in combat.

Any mitigating factors?

While Esidisi is fairly cocky, I wouldn’t say he’s a Smug Snake. He quickly learns not to underestimate Joseph after finding out how strong his Hamon gotten, the trap he falls for is a genuinely understandable one to fall in as opposed to holding any Villain Ball, and out gambits Joseph out gambiting Esidisi’s out gambiting of Joseph’s gambit. Basically, he more than bounces back from his mistake.

Now, one thing I was wondering about was whether or not him and his fellow Pillar Men looking down on humans was too much of Fantastic Racism for him to count. But after discussing with Lighty, we agreed it didn't. Unlike Dio, who openly mocks humans, Esidisi simply views humans a prey, which is pretty accurate in regards to Pillar Men. He also shows full awareness that humans can be impressive creatures, shown when he praised the minds of both Joseph and Sun Tzu.

Final Thoughts?

[tup]

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 31st 2020 at 1:46:56 PM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#9568: May 10th 2019 at 11:13:57 PM

Gotta think on Esidisi but honestly, I feel that Wamuu is more of a suitable candidate tbh.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#9569: May 10th 2019 at 11:18:49 PM

Wamuu...doesn't really do much in the plotting department. His tactics are all strictly in regards to combat, which personally, I think only goes so far when it comes to being an MB.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 10th 2019 at 2:55:24 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#9571: May 11th 2019 at 2:47:32 AM

[tup] to James Moriarty and Ms. Lint (just a point, she doesn't outright eliminate her gang. She just attacks them and prevents them from causing a crime, so it looks like she's trying to bring them down to).

Edited by MGD107 on May 11th 2019 at 2:49:35 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#9572: May 11th 2019 at 3:07:14 AM

[tup]Moriarty, Lint and Esidisi

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#9573: May 11th 2019 at 3:22:22 AM

[tup] to James Moriarty, Ms. Lint and Esidisi.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#9574: May 11th 2019 at 3:38:41 AM

[tup] Morio, Linty and that muscular Jojo guy.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#9575: May 11th 2019 at 4:17:19 AM

[tup] to Lint and Eisidi.

@Imperial Majesty XO: To answer your question, yes, I believe it is. Both novels were officially authorized by the Doyle Estate, which means they are considered canon to the original Holmes stories, and Moriarty is labeled as a follow-up to the House of Silk.


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