During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I have a candidate from Cobra Kai.
What is the work?
Cobra Kai, a YouTube Red original series serving as a sequel to The Karate Kid film series, taking place 34 years after the events of the first film. The series focuses on Johnny Lawrence, The Bully from that movie, who in the years following the All Valley Karate Tournament has become a washed up bum. However, after using his karate skills to save his teenage neighbor Miguel Diaz from some, Johnny takes the boy under his wing and starts up the Cobra Kai dojo again to teach the nerds and social outcasts of Miguel's high school to stand up for themselves. However, this draws the attention of Daniel LaRusso, who has become a successful car dealer since we last saw him and has been struggling to keep balance in his life following the death of Mr. Miyagi and later takes Johnny's disconnected son Robby Keene as his own karate students.
The story is about two men addressing their demons the only way they know how: through martial arts. It's actually a surprisingly good show, carrying on the themes of the original all while adding new layers of depth to its characters. I would honestly recommend getting a YouTube Red subscription just to check out this series, but enough with that, let's get to our MB candidate.
Who is the candidate?
John Kreese, the original Sensei of Cobra Kai and the OG Big Bad of The Karate Kid. While he was certainly crafty and devious, Kreese wasn't so much an MB in those films but in this work he shows himself to be an extremely charismatic and cunning manipulator, charming Johnny into letting him back in all while slowly instilling his own mindset onto Johnny's students to swipe Cobra Kai out from under him.
What has he done?
After Miguel defeats Robby in the All Valley Tournament wins for Cobra Kai at the end of season 1, Kreese shows up in the Cobra Kai dojo to congratulate Johnny for the win.
Johnny's reaction to this isn't shown until the start of Season 2, where he gets into a fight with Kreese (keep in mind the last time they were seen together Kreese tried to strangle Johnny). Kreese keeps his cool through all this and the two fight to a standstill before the scene shifts and Kreese apparently leaves. Kreese meets with Johnny several more times after this and eventually manages to convince Johnny to let him back into Cobra Kai by feigning remorse for what happened in '84 and playing on the fact that he was the closest thing to a father figure Johnny ever had in his life.
Johnny later introduces Kreese to his students, and Kreese assists Johnny in making Cobra Kai bigger than it was before. When Daniel starts up his own dojo based on Miyagi-Do to defeat Cobra Kai, Kreese and Johnny up We also learn about what Kreese was doing in between the last Karate Kid film and Cobra Kai. While Kreese initially claims to have gone back to working for the military after Cobra Kai flopped again, Johnny trails him and finds he's been living at a homeless shelter. Kreese then confesses the truth to Johnny, that he's been living as a vagabond for the last several years and returned to Cobra Kai after seeing in a local newspaper that Johnny's Cobra Kai had won the All Valley Karate Tournament, claiming to have seen it as his "second chance". Kreese actually manages to become sympathetic right here, but while he may be easy to sympathize with he's still the same old Sensei for Scoundrels he was before, and by seeming sympathetic gets Johnny to invite him to raise Cobra Kai up together with him.
After teaching with Johnny for a while, Kreese is left in charge of the dojo when Johnny goes out to visit his old friend Tommy "Get him a body bag" in the hospital. Kreese uses this opportunity to instill his own more aggressive worldview into Johnny's students, beginning his process of stealing Cobra Kai back out from under Johnny. However, after Johnny returns and sees what Kreese has been teaching his students he kicks Kreese out of the dojo and attempts to get his students to forget everything taught by Kreese, telling them that the Cobra Kai mantra of "Strike First, Strike Hard, No Mercy" isn't always applicable in life and at some points its okay to show mercy.
However, this isn't the last we see of Kreese. In the final episode of the series, a fight breaks out between the Miyagi-Do and Cobra Kai kids on the first day back at high school. In the fight Miguel dukes it out with Robby again and manages to pin him to the ground, only to remember Johnny's previous words about mercy and to attempt to show it to Robby. However, this leads to a furious Robby beating Miguel and knocking off the platform they were on, causing Miguel to suffer severe injuries once he hit the ground. When a sullen Johnny returns to his dojo after visiting a comatose Miguel in the hospital, he finds Kreese teaching his students in the back. Kreese then reveals to Johnny that during the time he was away, Kreese spoke with Johnny's landlord and convinced him to give him ownership of the dojo. As Johnny attempts to approach Kreese, all of his former students block his path, revealing that Kreese has turned Johnny's students against him by blaming him for Miguel's injuries. Johnny then tells Kreese he can have Cobra Kai, stating it was a mistake, and storms out, leaving Kreese as the sole owner of Cobra Kai.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Very much so. Despite having choked Johnny in the past, Kreese still manages to charm his way into the Cobra Kai again and even convince Johnny to put him in charge of the dojo while he's out for a few days. As for intelligence, in both the original Karate Kid and Cobra Kai Kreese is shown to be quite crafty. Every step Kreese takes in here is part of his plan to wrestle Cobra Kai back and he never loses his cool, always keeping a calm composure even when getting his students to embrace the ruthless Cobra Kai mindset. By the end of Season 2 Kreese is the only character to have won. He's gotten everything he wanted while Johnny and Daniel are left to sulk over their losses
Can he think on his feet?
The entire series was pretty much Kreese thinking on his feet. Kreese goes from being a vagabond to the owner of the most popular karate dojo in the valley in just the span of a few months. Immediately after seeing Cobra Kai has won the All Valley Tournament Kreese takes advantage of the situation by reclaiming his dojo. Kreese's strategy throughout season 2 was to wait and look for opportunities to strike, or as he himself would call it, "brumation".
Is he a bastard?
If you know anything about the Karate Kid mythos, then the answer is a definite yes. Kreese had no problem with using underhanded tactics to win, emotionally manipulating Johnny or corrupting Johnny's students to be aggressive thugs.
Too much of a bastard?
Kreese strays into Politically Incorrect Villain at several points, such as referring to Miguel as "the Mexican" in a conversation with Johnny or making fun of a clerk at a mini-mart for speaking Spanish. At the same time though Kreese isn't shown to have a problem with Johnny's Cobra Kai being diverse and inclusive and in fact, unlike Johnny in the first season, didn't even have a problem with girls joining Cobra Kai.
Verdict?
I'd say Kreese in this work is a pretty solid
.
Edited by ReddishGuy1 on May 9th 2019 at 9:54:08 AM
Just imagine something here.Thanos gets a yes from me.
Also I found this on Characters.Warrior Cats Others under Darktail.
- Magnificent Bastard: Darktail can talk as well as he can fight, expertly keeping his Kin in line with threats he knows will affect them. He successfully turned most of ShadowClan against the Warrior Code. Even while usually being outnumbered by the Clan cats, he has won many a battle with expert strategy, exploiting weaknesses with his words, and waiting to attack his enemies while they are most vulnerable. His incredible skill in exploitation left the Clans in disarray, turning a force that should normally easily overpower him against each other.
Darktail is... an interesting case.
He's a bastard alright, but I can't really say if his actions are driven by sadism or not given he's Made of Evil similar to Ganondorf.
So... let's try and Effortpost him!
What's the work?
Warrior Cats is a 2003 childrens book series about cats with pretty brutal themes that wouldn't be out of place in a dark shonen or maybe even Berserk. It features incest, Parental Abandonment, Abusive Parents, Forbidden love, racism, fascism, Heaven and Hell, and lots of bloody battles. In a series where Anyone Can Die once a book, there are plenty of villains who are vile but so far very few aren't racist, smug, or bigoted in some way. Darktail, is a special case...
Who is Darktail? What has he done?
Darktail is the bastard son of WindClan's leader Onestar and a nasty piece of work. However, like a lot of WC villains he has a genuine Freudian Excuse to keep him from being a monster. Basically Onestar had a kit with a nameless female cat and because he wanted to keep her safe he separated himself from her. Outraged at Onestar abandoning her and her son the cat raised the cat to hate all Clan cats. Compared to the likes of Tigerstar though, this isn't actual racism as Darktail does get some former Clan cats to join him. He's generally fairly affable but if you should cross him in any way such as defy his rogues, he'll have you executed on the spot. This happened to Rain, a rogue who was in love with Needletail who turned from ShadowClan to the rogues. There really isn't much he does that makes him that big of a monster, besides executing traitors and starvimg hostages, however he does drown Needletail and murder Rain as a warning to Clan cats who might oppose him. He also has his rogues kidnap and starve various Clan cats in an attempt to weaken the Clans and seek vengeance on the father who abandoned him. He also drives SkyClan out of their home and kills their medicine cat, preventing them from having a connection with their ancestors. It isn't until the third book in the series where he is Mutual Killed by his own father in a Heroic Sacrifice. While he is the Big Bad, his rogues are far crueler and brutal than he is. Like Rowanstar's granddaughter who kills him and kidnaps kittens to attempt to kill them later if he demands are not met. While Darktail is vicious and probably has one of the highest onscreen bodycounts of the series if you count cats he's ordered dead with the closest others being Tigerstar and of course Scourge.
Is he charming? Able to think on their feet?
He's very charming to the point 90% of ShadowClan thinks he has the charisma and strength to lead the Clan. And he's a brilliant strategist as each time the Clans try to get rid of him, he crushes their spirits as well as outwitting several of the Medicine cats including Jayfeather, a top notch strategist, and it's only thanks to Onestar's Mutual Kill that he dies in the first place. He took Onestar's eighth and ninth life (though died too (or so we think) in the latter case), he's orchestrated attacks against RiverClan, killed several cats and may have taken one of Mistystar's lives, and he is responsible for the disappearances of Dawnpelt and Needletail. He also subdued Rowanstar in battle, and he makes sure to let all of his Kin know that he can kill any of them should they resist him. He's not smug at all but he does believe in a sort of Social Darwanist society of the strong leaving the weak to die. That's the problem with him. He's brilliant yes, but he usually has moments of cruelty befitting of a crime lord. He's even able to make backup plans through his manipulating of his father.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
He is indeed a bastard as you have plainly seen. But the question is, is his genuinely affable but threatening and cruel nature to his subordinates enough to make him a MB? I would say perhaps. This is a candidate I am somewhat unsure on as I know he's done plenty of horrible things but he's never raped any cats, nor has he done more than public executions and the occasional drowning or mutual kill. I could be swayed either way.
He's also got a pretty good Freudian Excuse of his mother raising him to hate the Clans, because his father wouldn't take them in and most of his kin died with him as the Sole Survivor. So I would say he's got enough trauma in his life to outweigh the negative aspects of him.
Verdict?
I'll leave that to you guys.
Edited by Klavice on May 9th 2019 at 11:26:47 AM
I just realized that I forgot to write Sylens up when I effortposted him months back. I'll get to him eventually, but am too tired at the moment. Lasombra seems like a yes, but Thanos... ugh. I'm sorry, but I'm going to vote no for him. Even if it's for 2018 Thanos and not the petty 2014 version, he's just way too much of a dick for me to vote up what with his torture of Thor, his slow, drawn out murder of Loki, killing Heimdall out of spite, EVERYTHING he's done to Nebula (Even if he did regret it, as far as I'm concerned treating a kid the way he treated Nebula is an automatic disqualifier from this trope's status)... he's a cool villain and all, but a Magnificent Bastard he is not, IMO.
And I'm waiting for a second opinion on the Warrior Cats candidate before casting a vote.
Edited by FriedWarthog on May 9th 2019 at 11:49:18 AM
I've got a potential EP from Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy (2015), an animated series loosely based on the Guardians of the Galaxy film. The first season of the series is centred around the Guardians tracking down a powerful artifact known as the Cosmic Seed, in order to find it before Thanos or Ronan can.
Part of the first season is also centred on the Asgard War arc, where tensions between Asgard and the Spartaxian Empire at an all-time high after a diplomatic ceremony gone wrong (thanks to Drax). The arc has two Arc Villains. The first is J'Son, the Emperor of Spartax and Star-Lord's dad. The other is our candidate, Loki.
What does Loki do?
It's revealed that the Cosmic Seed was an Asgardian artifact, but it was stolen long ago, supposedly by J'Son. To clear his dad's name and prevent war, the Guardians try to locate the Seed. However, Loki sees the war as a way to claim the throne of Asgard for himself.
Loki proceeds to manipulate the Guardians into exposing J'Son's theft, anonymously providing Star-Lord the necessary tools to do so. Loki's plan worked, as Star-Lord exposes J'Son as the thief, sparking a war between Asgard and Spartex. However, it was later revealed that although J'Son was the one who stole the Cosmic Seed from Asgard, he was in turn ambushed by Loki who stole back the Seed from J'Son.
As Thor and several of Asgard's most powerful warriors go to war against Spartax, Loki secretly takes control of the Destroyer Armour and attempts to use it to wipe out both his brother and Star-Lord who discovered Loki's involvement in the theft, in one fell swoop. As a result, both Thor and Star-Lord are apparently killed in the process.
With Thor apparently dead and Odin in the Odinsleep, Loki becomes the interim king of Asgard. To build rapport for himself even further, he then brokers a ceasefire with J'Son, both of them using the surviving Guardians as The Scapegoat. But what Loki didn't count on was Rocket Raccoon's intervention, hacking into the Destroyer's archives and exposes both Loki and J'Son's theft. To make matters worse, both Thor and Star-Lord are revealed to be alive, screwing Loki over even more.
But before Loki could be arrested, Thanos invades Asgard at J'Son's behest. Taking advantage of the chaos, Loki escapes only to reappear at the climax to assist the Guardians in taking out Thanos by banishing him into a black hole, while J'Son is arrested by his own people for treason. When confronted by Thor, Loki reveals that he hid the Cosmic Seed somewhere no one could find it, not even Loki himself. This, plus his assistance in saving Asgard from Thanos, Loki is reluctantly pardoned by Thor.
In Season 2, Loki was imprisoned for unknown crimes. Around this time, Asgard was invaded by the symbiotes, with its population completely taken over. The Guardians came across Loki in the dungeons, and he convinces them to release him in order to stop the symbiotes.
Of course, Loki being Loki, betrays the Guardians and intends to send all the symbiotes to Earth, saving Asgard in his own way. Unfortunately, he was thwarted by the Guardians and Heimdall who managed to free the rest of the Asgardians from the symbiotes' control. Odin, in gratitude, offers to grant the Guardians one request.
However, Loki had actually planned ahead in the chance that he would fail. When he was released, he secretly casted a binding spell on Star-Lord. Star-Lord, under Loki's control, requests that Loki be pardoned for his crimes. Odin, honour-bound, reluctantly complies and Loki is free to go.
Is he Magnificent?
Loki shows himself to be a efficient chessmaster and Manipulative Bastard, playing Asgard, Spartax and the Guardians against one another for his own purposes. The Guardians didn't even factor into the plan at first, but Loki quickly took advantage of them to expose J'Son as the scapegoat. In fact, he nearly took both Thor and Star-Lord out of the picture, and was only thwarted due to Rocket's unexpected intervention, otherwise Loki would have become king with no-one the wiser.
Plus he's shown to be just as brilliant at the Xanatos Speed Chess, taking advantage of every opportunity to benefit him in the long run. Thanos attacking Asgard was unexpected, but Loki nonetheless used his attack on Asgard as a way to weasel himself out. And then there's also his Xanatos Gambit when the symbiotes invaded. If he succeeds in stopping the symbiotes, he'll be a hero and pardoned. If the Guardians succeed, he left a contingency plan that saw him getting pardoned regardless.
Although Loki becomes a Big Bad Wannabe once Thanos comes into the picture, he's the only one out of the three villains to come out relatively unscathed. Thanos is trapped in a black hole, J'Son is in prison. He may not get his throne, but he still gets off scot free. Not bad.
Is he a Bastard?
Given that he's willing to orchestrate a war and take his brother out of the picture just to claim the throne for himself, plus him having no qualms unleashing the symbiotes on Earth, yeah. That being said, he does have standards. He knew how dangerous the Cosmic Seed was for Asgard and the universe as a whole, so he hid it where not even he could find it even though he could have used the Seed for himself. Not only that, he willingly aided the Guardians in taking down Thanos, as Thanos threatened to destroy Asgard.
Conclusion?
I'd say Loki can qualify.
Said character is now here, @43110. Introducing... Jérémie The Eternal and Omnipotent from the Code Lyoko fanfiction The Games of Moriarty
.
What's the work?
"The Games of Moriarty" is a completed Code Lyoko fanfiction written by Ragnarok 777. This fanfiction starts a few months after Season 4. Essentially, the Lyoko-warriors are fighting a new, human enemy : Moriarty, a former colleague of Franz Hopper. Some of you may already know about that fanfiction since I successfully effortposted Moriarty in the Complete Monster section (beware spoilers)
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Who is Jérémie The Eternal and Omnipotent? What he has done?
Remember the Teen Genius from Code Lyoko? Well, in the second chapter of this fanfiction, Jérémie, after being mind-raped by Moriarty in the first chapter, went off the deep end and became an insane villain hell-bent on destroying Moriarty and taking over the world.
With his "Holmes" program, he attempts to destroy Moriarty, but Holmes also damages the entire Internet. On top of that, Moriarty repairs any damage Holmes did to him, and even grows in power. At first, Jérémie is concerned, but when Holmes finally starts to give Moriarty lasting damage, Jérémie cares less and less... Even though countries starts to blame each other for the mysterious Internet bug. He also uses Lyoko to gain power for himself, to the point of becoming the most powerful human in the world.
When William reveals that XANA is still living inside him with all of it's power (while also pressuring William into freeing him, otherwise he'll possess William), Jérémie decides to free XANA, hoping that XANA and Moriarty would destroy each other. The flaws, however, are that XANA is so powerful it could start it's world conquest only one day after being freed (on top of curb-stomping Moriarty like it used to in the Network) and that the heroes would lose both Odd (who's brainwashed by Moriarty and would be killed alongside Moriarty if XANA succeeds) and William (whom XANA chose to possess again anyway). The other Lyoko-warriors and Moriarty are thus forced to pull an Enemy Mine to defeat XANA once and for all. Kicked out of the team for resurrecting XANA, thinking he's been betrayed and noticing that nations are going to destroy each other, Jérémie finally jumps off the slippery slope, and decides to become humanity's god and guide (and later, master).
To ensure that Holmes doesn't cause a nuclear war, Jérémie plans to virtualize himself in the Network, destroy Holmes, Moriarty and Odd, and then easily Take Over the World as he would be seen as humanity's savior. However, Sanity Has Advantages, and as such Aélita has no problem with stealing Jérémie's laptop, thus discovering Jérémie's Evil Plan. The other Lyoko-warriors and Moriarty are thus forced to pull another Enemy Mine to destroy Holmes before Jérémie does so. This does not sit well with Jérémie, who join them in the factory to prevent it. However, Aélita and Moriarty destroyed Holmes the second Jérémie joined them. Deciding to attack his former allies (but slightly hesitating, as a part of him still does love Aélita) who wants to prevent him from virtualizing himself, Jérémie curb-stomps Ulrich, Yumi and William who attempted to stop him. Frightened by Jérémie, Moriarty sents his Dragon Odd to Earth to stop Jérémie. With Odd's clone, both first curb-stomps Jérémie... But Jérémie quickly gets up, turns the tables and defeat them both. Realizing that he's unbeatable by brute force, a badly wounded Aélita tells Jérémie that she created a program to destroy Moriarty. Wanting to know more about it (because he's still obsessed with destroying Moriarty), Jérémie tries to read Aélita's mind to get it, but this is exactly what Aélita wanted : with their minds connected, she mind-rapes Jérémie : the Mind Rape is so similar to Moriarty's (showing a dystopian world where Jérémie wins ; thus showing Jérémie that if he succeeds, he would be no better than Moriarty) that Jérémie goes back to being the good old Jérémie when Aélita is done with him.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Jérémie's intelligence, upped to Eleven. With Holmes, he played the whole world against itself and almost started a nuclear war. If it wasn't for Aélita's Batman Gambit, he would've won. Even if he was a Monster of the Week who only appeared in the second chapter, Jérémie The Eternal and Omnipotent permanently changed Moriarty's Evil Plan, as nations strengthened their security following the nuclear scare, thus preventing Moriarty from merely taking over the world by hacking the world's nuclear weapons and forcing him to start manipulating people on Earth.
Can he think on his feet?
When his plan of taking over the world without his former friends noticing anything failed due to his own mental instability, he used the power he gained before turning evil to curb-stomp them and almost won. Not even Moriarty could stop him.
Is he a bastard?
He attempted to Take Over the World and barring Aélita, didn't hesitate in attacking his former friends. I'm pretty sure he is one. His sheer power even frightened Moriarty, a CM, and in a hilarious way :
Aélita struggles to get to the computer. She looks at the computer screen angrily.
Aelita: Are you just going to sit there and do nothing?
Moriarty: Holmes is destroyed. Our deal is done. But good luck with him.
Aelita: For your information, if we don't stop Jeremie, he's going to virtualize himself into the Network and personally rip you apart!
A second of silence.
Moriarty: Of course I will do everything in my power to help you!
Too much of a bastard?
As mentioned, a part of him still does love Aélita (in fact, this is the reason why he wasn't irredeemable and was returned to normal by Aélita). Also, while he wasn't afraid to hurt his former friends, he could've killed them all right then and here before virtualizing himself. He was a Juggernaut and no one could've been able to stop him if he did kill them. He chose not to. He even virtualized Odd instead of killing him immediately.
Verdict?
The fanfiction was lauded for it's tons of Character Development and Jérémie's Sanity Slippage in the first two chapters has been cited as an example by a reviewer. So I think he has his chances. Besides, the good Jérémie later becomes a Guile Hero in said fanfiction, proving that yeah, he totally has the potential to be a MB.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 10th 2019 at 2:57:44 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Also,
to those I missed.
Geez, did Thanos open the floodgates or something?
I should note the real reason Thanos goes full Omnicidal Maniac is because you gotta raise the stakes somehow. Like, if it were just half again? Yawn. Been there, done that, didn't feel so good last time. But all of life? Holy poopballs now they really gotta stop him!
Anyway, Thayeses to Thanos. Are we just gonna list him under Infinity War and Endgame or the MCU as a whole? If just under IW and E then the write up should mention his involvement in the other films.
His treatment of Nebula is nasty but not so much to make his utterly gross. I mean, as Lighty says, there's always a purpose to his purple meanness.
The Gnome who is objectively better than Thanos as well.
But Lighty, gotta ask: When are the EP's for the Rat and Noobmaster 69?
I'm not going to vote on Thanos yet (seeing Endgame today, I swear), but for Loki, he's not really complete yet. Technically, he's the same character as the one in Avengers Assemble, as well as guest appearances in Ultimate Spider-Man and Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H.. We're missing a lot of details here since it takes place in one large continuity (loose though, I'll admit), similar to 90's Doctor Doom I did a while back.
So, I'm abstaining on that grounds.
Edited by chasemaddigan on May 10th 2019 at 11:01:24 AM
Uh We took each show as its own thing in the cm thread as like Ravok said these shows have like zero direct links with each other. Charcaters can completly change personilty and designs From show to show.
Heck Guardians 2015 recently had a crossover with Marvels Spider Man which shows its not in the same universe as Ultimate Spider Man.
Edited by miraculous on May 10th 2019 at 8:10:56 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."- Hey Arnold! The Jungle Movie: Lasombra is a ruthless river pirate defined by his greed. After losing the Corazon to Arnold's parents years ago, Lasombra orchestrates a fake contest to lure Arnold into San Lorenzo. Disguising himself as Eduardo, Lasombra gives Arnold an amulet that was in truth a tracking device anticipating that Arnold would escape and unwittingly lead him to the lost city of the Green-Eyed People. Demonstrating his quick wit by sacrificing his minions to numerous booby traps during his trek through the jungle, Lasombra succeeds at finding the lost city. Despite being sociopathic and possessing the willingness to kill children if his schemes called for it, Lasombra balances this by having several laughable moments and quips and stands as the ultimate villain of the Hey Arnold series for this reason.
- The Powerpuff Girls: The Gnome from the season 5 episode "See Me, Feel Me, Gnomey," sought to create a utopia revolving around himself. To this end, he manipulates the Powerpuff Girls into making a deal with him promising to get rid of the town's villains if they gave him their powers in return. Quickly asserting himself as the ruler of Townsville after vanquishing the other villains, the citizens of Townsville worship the Gnome and establish a cult dedicated to him. In his final moments, the Gnome realized the error of his ways, and willed himself to die, concluding that he couldn't exist in his perfect utopia.
Edited by AustinDR on May 10th 2019 at 1:22:58 AM
Okay, finally got back from Endgame (holy crap you guys), so I'll a
for Thanos. He's an utter, complete dick, but through it all he's captivating to watch. He accepts both of losses with a level of dignity and clearly has standards to him.
The only part I'm kind of iffy on is how he abuses Nebula throughout the films. I'm kind of torn if that level of abuse truly disqualifies him or not, but 2014!Thanos does try to let Nebula make it up to him. It doesn't excuse his behavior by any means, but he does at least give her an opportunity to do so.
to Kreese and the others.
@Polar
My belief is that the reason they went full Omnicidal Maniac was to Dismantle the "Thanos is right" parts of the Fandom.
Edited by Kylotrope on May 10th 2019 at 5:16:55 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here

Will get the Gnome and Lasombra written up soon.