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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#926: May 22nd 2018 at 9:51:40 AM

I'm sure that a Fascist Emperor should know what his forces are able to do.

Also, Not to give a downvote, but Palpatine' love for Awesome, but Impractical weapons had being a part of his characterization in both EU.

Watch me destroying my country
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#927: May 22nd 2018 at 10:11:35 AM

Yeah but the Dearh Star was only at risk due to a disgruntled scientist sneaking in a back door

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#928: May 22nd 2018 at 10:13:14 AM

@Lighty: Can I get your opinions on the examples from Buffy and Angel. Holtz and Lilah are the clearest keeps with Angelus and Spike being the clearest cuts but I'm not sure on the others.

Here they are:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Spike in Season 2 and the very end of Season 4. Ethan Rayne had a moment or two as well.
    • The Master was a pretty cunning villain and he certainly had the Deadpan Snarker vibe down to a tee. He's also one of two Big Bads to cause Buffy's death, the only one to actually do it himself, and the only one to kill her twice.
    • Sweet from "Once More, With Feeling". He came to town, killed a bunch of people, made the Scoobies reveal a bunch of embarrassing secrets about themselves, nearly killed Buffy and left town without getting a scratch on him. Enough said.

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Holland Manners.
    • Angelus is as close to this as any Complete Monster can get.
    • Holtz outdoes Them both though. Lindsey and Lilah are no slouches either.

edited 22nd May '18 10:16:05 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#929: May 22nd 2018 at 11:02:54 AM

Edit: Also, yeah, I'm going to say Mir's right in that we might wanna wait until we have more regular voters before doing Palpatine. There's way too much pre-talk going on and while I'm pretty sure I'll be saying no, I would hate for an EP to get screwed just because we don't have enough people voting regularly such that one or two nos could destroy it.

Mir, are those from the YMMV pages? I think I had the locked ones cut. If so, please just remove them. Anyways, continuing my live action sweep, here's "B":

  • Babylon 5:
    • Alfred Bester epitomizes this trope. He combines ruthless scheming with an infuriating charisma that drives the heroes crazy even as they are forced to respect his skill. Bester can do this even when his telepathic powers have been removed.
    • Londo Mollari is a Magnificent Bastard at his core. Case in point: A meeting between himself and one of his allies of the moment, lord Antono Refa. Londo invites him out to Babylon 5 to discuss recent Centauri military activities (re: starting twelve wars simultaneously and depending on the Shadows for assistance). Londo does not approve. He offers Refa a drink, and runs down why this plan is a disaster waiting to happen. When Refa asks why he should do anything Londo says, Londo replies "Because I have asked you. Because your sense of duty to our people should override any personal ambition. And because I have poisoned your drink." He goes on to describe how the poison comes in two parts, one of which was in Refa's drink. If he does not comply, one of Londo's agents in the Royal Court will introduce him to the second half of the poison. Finally, Londo lifts his own glass while Refa is sitting there ashen-faced and jovially proposes a toast to Refa's health.
      • Later Londo decides to kill Refa for something that Refa had not actually done, for once, but doesn't use the poison. Why? Because now he wants Refa destroyed, and that includes disgracing House Refa. So he lures him in a room full of homicidal Narn with his bodyguards actually being Londo's men, has G'kar play an holografic recording delivering a magnificent gloating that includes detailing why the Narn will kill him and how Refa's one way to get out of that (convincing Londo lied) has been already blocked (Londo is paying them freeing two thousand imprisoned Narn, half in advance and "half pending their cooperation") and then plant evidence disgracing House Refa on him... And then the Narn beat him to death, sparing his face for better identification.
    • Magnificent Bastardry seems to be the Centauri's "hat"; What does timid, gentle Vir Cotto do when a madman becomes Emperor and is ordering daily genocides? Make protests? Feed information to La Résistance? Nope! He cooks up a byzantine scheme to secretly relocate hundreds of thousands of would-be victims by pretending to have them killed! He's a nice guy, but he's still a Centauri.
    • Ivanova also gets her share of Magnificent Bastard moments. There's not a thing that goes on in the station except she knows about it, and she can work within the letter of the law to get aliens to cooperate with her like nobody else can. The only times she can't figure out what's going on is when it involves Sheridan, because even Ivanova can't out-think him. Remember, God sent her.
    • Sinclair is easily the Chairman of the Babylon 5 Rules Lawyer Bar Association, with the way he's able to manipulate both human and alien rules and regulations to get what he wants. Given that he would eventually become the Minbari war hero/religious figure Valen, it's only natural that the Minbari learned how to creatively choose their words from him. Although he is more than capable of holding his own in a physical fight, and can bluff like nobody's business, it's in knowing how to bend, stretch, spindle, and tie the rules in knots where Sinclair truly shines, and he's able to outplay career politicans and professional negotiators with ease. Ultimately EarthGov was forced to reassign him as ambassador to Minbar to get him out of the way.
  • Battlestar Galactica (2003): Gaius Baltar has demonstrated an amazing ability to weasel, connive, and adapt every adverse situation to his own personal advantage. Even when he has been called out on his manipulations and lies and has grudgingly admitted to it, he has been able to show his opponents how it is to their advantage to grant his wishes, just this one more time. At the start of the series, a Cylon gulls him into giving her the codes for the Twelve Colonies' defence mainframe allowing them to subvert it and invade. As the human race evacuate the planet of Caprica, a Viper pilot gives up his seat for Baltar because Baltar is the most intelligent man in the universe and therefore of great use to the human race. While onboard Galactica, Baltar creates a fake Cylon detector and incriminates a man as a Cylon because this man was previously suspicious of Baltar. As providence would have it, this man actually is a Cylon although Baltar can't really take credit for that. He also exposes a Cylon device concealed aboard the ship, further gaining favour with the fleet. Later in the series, he runs for Presidency of the Twelve Colonies and gets elected based on charisma alone. He then orders the colonisation of a planet which he names New Caprica. The occupation of the planet is not a success. The planet turns out to be extremely hostile and Baltar just showers himself in opulence while his subjects suffer and starve. Then the Cylons invade and make Baltar their political puppet, forcing him to sign executions and using him as a scapegoat but Baltar secretly feeds information to the resistance movement until Galactica arrives and drives away the Cylons. Baltar then joins the Cylons and forces the mentally unstable Sharon Agathon to turn the human/Cylon hybrid baby, Hera over to the Cylons who take care of her. When Baltar is recaptured by the humans who try to torture him for information, he refuses to crack and demands a trial. During his incarceration he releases a book which causes a mutiny in the fleet but also provides the information necessary to restore order, gaining a fanatical cult that worship Baltar as the Messiah and also forcing President Laura Roslin to give Baltar a trial. Baltar hires the best lawyer in the business and gets off scot-free. When he is released from gaol, he joins his cult for protection and when that cult is threatened by dangerous fanatics, Baltar threatens to provoke a religious war unless he and his people are left in peace. And at the end of the series, he settles down to live quietly as a farmer with the love of his life! Watch his hair. When it's slicked back, he's about to pull something underhanded. When it's not, he already did.
  • Big Love: Roman Grant: the patriarch of a polygamist compound who stole the title of Prophet from the hero's grandfather. He's also an extremely cunning businessman, who manages to one-up the hero, Bill, throughout the first season - in one case, just when Bill appears to have blackmailed him into giving up his financial interest in Bill's business, by threatening to destroy a guitar he particularly likes, he makes a deal with Bill that appears to give Bill everything he wants - a third outlet of Bill's "Home Depot" style store. Except then he gets the government to declare the land Bill has already bought an historical site. Despite being a thorough swine, he also believes deeply in the importance of family and calls to commiserate for Bill when Bill's family is exposed as polygamists. Of course, he exposed them....
  • Blackadder: The third Blackadder, Edmund Blackadder, is the butler to the idiotic Prince George of Regency England. A roguish cheat who constantly scams money out of his employer, Blackadder is also left with the task of running the country, manipulating the election of his completely idiotic sidekick Baldrick to the House of Commons to vote down a measure harmful to the prince by setting up a Rotten Borough and taking over the position as the only voter as well as the supervisor of elections by murdering his predecessors. When a bet is made for him to one-up the Scarlet Pimpernel, he simply opts to head down to a coffee house and find an aristocrat at the French embassy. When the real Scarlet Pimpernel is about to reveal his treachery, Blackadder promptly murders him and wins a great award from Prince George by claiming to be the true Scarlet Pimpernel. Even in the finale, Blackadder sees Prince George dead when they've switched identities and takes the chance to claim to be the real prince to the insane King George III, gleefully ascending to the throne of England several years later.
  • The Blacklist: Raymond Reddington. He starts the show by turning himself over to the FBI to assist them in taking down a supposedly-dead terrorist, who is just the first out of many in the eponymous Blacklist. He follows that up by constantly manipulating the Feds and criminals to pursue his own agendas. The delicious portrayal by James Spader cements it.
    • By the end of Season 3, he virtually has the Bureau under his control. The entire government knows it, and they cannot do anything about it.
    • Susan 'Scotty' Hargrave belongs here too. This stylish and sophisticated private military fashionista has wits that can stand toe-to-toe with Reddington.
  • Boardwalk Empire:
    • Arnold Rothstein. Fixed the 1919 World Series and got away clean. Kingpin of New York, running an empire of gambling, prostitution, drugs, booze, and crime - all with impeccable manners and a sense of style. Steal from him? You're a marked man. Kill one of his business partners? He may have you killed immediately, or he may let you swing when it becomes more politically expedient. Because if he'll watch a man choke to death for his own amusement, what do you think he'll do to someone who crosses him?
    • It takes until the end of season two for him to hit full Magnificent Bastardry, but Enoch "Nucky" Thompson gets there in spectacular fashion. When his protege, Jimmy, betrays him (after screwing up numerous business deals for him in season one) and teams up with the Commodore and Eli to bring Nucky down, Nucky predicts he'll ruin Jimmy. After surviving a second assassination attempt, Nucky starts cutting deals in spectacular fashion: bringing in Torrio and Rothstein for advice (and taking it), using his ties to Chalky to incite a race riot, and calling in the favors the IRA owes him and selling them guns in exchange for booze. Nucky doesn't have to do much else before all of Jimmy's deals start to backfire and he spirals out of control - but shooting Jimmy himself in the head sends the message that he's back in charge of AC.
    • Nucky outdoes himself at the end of season three; under attack from the season's Big Bad, Gyp Rosetti, and his backer, New York crime boss Joe Masseria, Nucky gets Rothstein to convince Masseria to pull his support for Rosetti, and in return Rothstein demands a 99% share of the Pennsylvania distillery that Nucky is leasing from Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon. Nucky agrees... and after he's won the war, promptly narcs Rothstein out to Mellon, the man responsible for enforcing Prohibition.
  • Borgia: Cesare grows to be one over the course of the series, going from a self doubting priest in training to the most feared man in Italy
  • The Borgias: Rodrigo Borgia schemes his way into the papacy and secures powerful positions for his family. This is the man who remains pope, though nearly all of the accusations against him are true. So it's saying something that the real Magnificent Bastard of the show—in every way—is his eldest son, Cesare, who goes from reluctant cardinal to fratricidal, incestuous warlord over the course of three seasons. Towards the end of season three, he's running the show whether his father likes it or not. There's a reason why his historical counterpart inspired Machiavelli's The Prince.

Right off the bat I remember we just did Edmund, so he's fine to stay. I'm not too familiar on the other works, so any commentary would help. Lighty, I know you've seen Boardwalk Empire, so maybe you can shed some light on that one?

edited 22nd May '18 11:04:46 AM by 43110

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#930: May 22nd 2018 at 11:10:05 AM

Okay, for Buffy/Angel...I'd say Holtz is a yes, but Angelus and Spike are obvious cuts. Holtz is probably the clearest one for Angel.

Regarding the B5 exampls...Bester and Londo have decent claim. Londo is a decent man steadily corrupted, even if he pulls himself out of it, but goddamn can be get stuff done.

Oh, and that is my entry for Blackadder. Someone must've added it.

For Boardwalk...Nucky cannot keep. The fifth season takes him out when he is outplayed and left helpless. I'm not sure about Rothsteim, but I'd be willing to hear the argument. However, I find it odd that the series' true examples aren't listed: Charlie "Lucky" Luciano and Meyer Lansky

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#931: May 22nd 2018 at 11:21:34 AM

[up][up]I watch Blacklist, Raymond counts. The closest he gets to losing his cool is when he thinks his daughter is dead (She turns out to be fine) which sends him into depression but I think we can give some leeway for something like that.

edited 22nd May '18 11:21:56 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#932: May 22nd 2018 at 11:27:47 AM

For now I'll request the cuts but as the two of you seem versed in some of these, I'd love to see some EPs from you both.

Anyways, throwing the "C" entries up:

  • Camelot: Morgan Pendragon from the Starz television series is the daughter of the former king and the legitimate heir to the throne of England. Ambitious, intelligent, ruthless and a great manipulator with a talent for the The Plan, she'll stop at nothing to become queen and gets most of the English people on her side, given the fact that in this show, King Arthur is apparently useless. Morgan is seemingly intended to be a villain but her incredible charisma, the fact that she's actually more relatable than the supposed protagonists and being played by Eva Green mean that most of the fans are cheering her on. In fact, most of the people on the show are even cheering her on.
  • Carnivàle: Iris Crowe is a fairly spectacular example. The sweet, innocent spinster sister of Brother Justin? Has not only spent her entire life playing Xanatos Speed Chess with her brother's true nature, but burned down her brother's church to get him publicity, allowed an innocent man to go to jail and eventual execution for what she did, lured an innocent woman out beyond the camp and then bashed her over the head with a boat oar, to keep her from talking about how evil Justin really is and kept the secret of Sofie's paternity from everyone. After the big battle, when Ben and Justin are lying dead in the cornfield, the New Canaan faithful have almost been completely slaughtered by Justin, and the Carnivale has had to slip away for fear of the authorities in the early morning hours, what is Iris doing? Cooling her heels as the Last One Standing.

Thoughts on either being worth an EP or just cut?

Edit: And D because why not?

  • Dallas: John Ross Ewing, II aka J.R., is for all intents and purposes a major contender for Trope Codifier. Affably Evil? Check. Savvy? He expects people to double-cross him! The Chessmaster? Drives all the other characters to frustration at how well he plays them. And even after his main Enemy, Cliff Barnes, has seemingly taken away all J.R.'s power for good, our Villain Protagonist proves in the TNT relaunch that he has spent the years between shows planning the perfect revenge...which can best be described as a Xanatos Gambit plus Batman Gambit plus a little Xanatos Speed Chess when he learns of his impending death. He arranges his own assassination to frame Cliff, and thereby reconquer the Ewing empire for J.R.'s son. He brands this Thanatos Gambit his "masterpiece"...and frankly, it's pretty hard to disagree.
    • Speaking of the TNT relaunch, John Ross III—J.R.'s son—spends the first season-and-a-half being mentored by his dad to be a Magnificent Bastard himself. Lampshaded by the old man himself, in the final moments of Season 1:
    J.R.: (Grinning) Now that's my son...from tip to tail.
  • The Day of the Triffids: Torrence, the charismatic sociopath played by Eddie Izzard in this 2009s adaptation starts of as a pretty Magnificent Bastard but suffers Villainous Breakdown when his plans start to go awry, revealing himself to be more of a Smug Snake, albeit a very high-functioning one.
  • Deadwood: Al Swearengen slowly earns this title over the course of the second season when it becomes clear he's trying to bring order to the horrible frontier town in order to protect his dominance. Sure he orders hits on little girls, kills innocent people and generally does horrible things to everyone. Compared to Hearst and his cronies, Swearengen is practically a populist man of the people.
  • Degrassi: Eli. Two examples stand out: when he crashed his hearse just to get Clare by his side when it clear their relationship was about to implode; and more recently when he gave Tristan, the school's resident Camp Gay, the role of Juliet in Degrassi's production of Romeo And Juliet, simply because he knew it would cause his co-director Becky, a Holier Than Thou Heteronormative Crusader, to quit. Tristan even calls Eli by the trope name when Eli tells him this.
  • Desperate Housewives: Has, in its seventh season, Paul Young, who returns to Wisteria Lane after being falsely incarcerated. After no one came to visit him in jail, or supported him, he decided to punish the responsible parties by making them suffer. As such, he engineers gambits to own enough houses to open a halfway house for convicts, spreading seeds of distrust among the neighbors to make them hate each other. And it works: Lynette invites people who wind up causing a riot (spurred on by Bree attempting to break up a fight), it knocks Susan unconscious, another neighbor incites them to attack Lee, who was tricked into selling (and also attempt to hurt both Lee's boyfriend and a 7-year-old girl), and causes a real mess of things. Perhaps his most brilliant manoeuvre ever.
  • Doctor Who: This show is littered with examples:
    • The Master, in many of his incarnations. In the Delgado era, he was a suave foil for the Doctor, constantly trying to take over the world, using untrustworthy allies. In the Ainley era, he created a city for the sole purpose of trapping the Doctor, managed to foment a civil war among people who were convalescing, and nearly derailed the signing of the Magna Carta, among other schemes. Not to mention the time he held the entire universe for ransom, after destroying a tenth of it BY ACCIDENT. In the Simm era, he ran for and was elected Prime Minister. He took over the Earth, decimated the population with six billion robot beachballs of doom, tormented the main protagonists while dancing around his Cool Ship to "Voodoo Child" (by the Rogue Traders), and was generally bastardly. And magnificent. This was undone in the end, but still.
    • Davros: In the serial "Revelation of the Daleks". After escaping from a maximum security prison, he adopts an alias and becomes a hero to the galaxy by alleviating famine. How does he do it? He uses the bodies sent to a planet-sized cemetery complex as the main ingredient for an "artificial" foodstuff. When the Doctor asks if he's actually told the general public about this, Davros says no, because "That would have created what I believe is termed 'consumer resistance'." Oh, and while he's doing all this, he's using other bodies from the complex to create (yet another) new race of Daleks. He was pretty bastardly in "Genesis of the Daleks" as well. When the Doctor convinced the Kaled government to investigate his research programs, he simply gave the Thals, his own people's arch-enemies, the information they needed to annihilate the Kaleds. Then he sent the Daleks to wipe out the Thals. Meanwhile, he carries out a purge of any surviving Kaleds whose conscience might hinder the Daleks' development. If you actually pay attention, you'll notice Davros isn't even so much as momentarily inconvenienced for the whole six episodes, despite the numerous twists and turns, up until the last few moments where the Daleks turn on him and (almost) kill him. Whoops. Even in the revival series, he's proven himself worthy of this title. In "The Witch's Familiar," Davros is able to finally regain the worship of the Daleks and steal the Doctor's regeneration energy to empower them, at least until the decaying ones in the sewers also gain said energy and start revolting.
    • The Dalek Emperor "The Evil of the Daleks". Establishing a council of Smug Snakes to procure the materials necessary to destroy the Earth, and then manipulating the Doctor himself, making him isolate the "Human Factor" so that the Daleks could isolate the "Dalek Factor".
      • Then comes the Dalek Emperor in "The Parting of the Ways". Having survived the Time War, he and the Daleks infiltrated Earth from 199,000 to 200,100, and slowly rebuilt the Dalek race during this period, whilst hiding from humanity and controlling it at the same time. He considers himself to be the god of all Daleks as a result of this, and the Daleks willingly worship himself as such.
    • Ramon Salamander in "The Enemy of the World". A public benefactor for his own ends, he was consolidating power by engineering tectonic disasters. He did so by herding some people into a giant fallout shelter under the pretext of avoiding a war, and telling them the survivors were so warped it would be a mercy to kill them. Also, his supposed arch-nemesis was actually The Dragon (and The Starscream). When his plans went aft a-gley, he used his resemblance to the Doctor to get into the TARDIS (His cover did not last, of course).
    • "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" gives us Well-Intentioned Extremists Sir Charles Grover and Professor Whitaker. Their plan was to turn back time to land their chosen few in the Mesozoic, undoing everything that had happened since. They also arranged that the head of the British Army's operations in London would be in on it, too.
    • Taren Capel from "The Robots of Death" overcame more than a million subroutines per robot when making them forget the First Law of Robotics and turn on the humans, while impersonating a man assigned to a Sandminer.
    • Li H'sen Chang from "The Talons of Weng-Chiang". Onstage, he was a star illusionist and the most popular act (albeit with some unfortunate facets to his act). Offstage, however, he was The Dragon for a fifty-first century mass murderer, very skilled in hypnosis, and quite possibly Jack the Ripper.
    • Cessair of Diplos, from "The Stones of Blood". She absconded with part of a Cosmic Keystone and three silicon-based creatures, which she used as attack "dogs". With the ship hauling her to prison stuck in hyperspace by Earth, she passed herself off as a deity among the locals. For ages they fed her Ogri (with animal blood once human sacrifice was abolished), and she bought up the land her shrine was on, through the ages. Oh, and she may have been an agent of the Black Guardian.
    • The Valeyard from "The Trial of a Time Lord". Of course, any bastard siphoned off of the Doctor while the latter was regenerating would HAVE to be magnificent, and the Valeyard almost succeeds in getting the Doctor executed, all the while plotting to wipe out the High Council. In the ensuing Gambit Pileup, his plan literally blows up in his face, but he survived and become Keeper of the Matrix. And even the Master was afraid of him. The Master's fear of the Valeyard was the ultimate reason for The Valeyard's defeat: Rather than risk facing the Valeyard (who is, being a version of the Doctor, MORE than capable of defeating any scheme the Master is likely to cook up) and risk being killed (the one thing the Doctor won't do to him) the Master opts to reveal the Valeyard's entire plan to the court itself FROM INSIDE THE MATRIX. He's the future Doctor (well, an Enemy Without) sometime between his 12th and final incarnations. Given how badass the Doctor has been already and how badass he's become in future episodes, this isn't surprising in the least.
    • And then there's the plain vanilla Daleks that show up in "Victory of the Daleks". Eight of them (five of which were only created halfway through the story) in a broken-down, underpowered ship pull one plan after another with the Doctor as their Unwitting Pawn in both cases. They play the last of the Time Lords like a fiddle and use him to restore the Dalek race, before giving him an Sadistic Choice and forcing him to let them escape. The audience spends the whole story expecting the Doctor to bounce back and defeat them: he doesn't. They win. They absolutely school him. This just goes to show how much the Daleks have learned. Not to mention that the three Daleks that helped started this magnificent plan were, according to Word of God, what were left of the Crucible Daleks created from Davros' cells. Given Davros has been put in this very page, it's no wonder they count.
    • The Dream Lord, the villain of "Amy's Choice". As befits his status as the manifestation of all the Doctor's self-loathing and malice, he is a magnificent one-episode wonder, complete with a classic Evil Plan, who really enjoys his work. The end of the episode implies we may see him again.
    • Madame Kovarian, who leaves the Doctor thoroughly Out-Gambitted in "A Good Man Goes to War", managing to distract him from the real Melody Pond the exact same way she distracted him from Amy Pond, rendering all of the Doctor's incredible efforts completely moot with the most beautifully simple of schemes. And then she calls up just to mock him for falling for it.
  • Dollhouse: Adelle DeWitt has ascended to Magnificent Bastardry in the last couple episodes. The woman took a bullet and proceeded to watch her former right hand man be lobotomized then carried on a conversation as cool as ice cream! Her reputation as this has been solidified for sure in the later episodes. Turning in the one piece of technology that could end the world to her less than cautious superiors to regain control of her house? That's one thing. Doing it to regain a foothold large enough to send Echo to the Attic and have her bring enough new and devastating information to bring them down? Magnificent.
    • It turns out, however, that she and everyone else have been played by Boyd Langton, who had evidently intentionally sent Caroline to the LA Dollhouse to become Echo because he apparently expected exactly what happened with her to happen, then he became her handler and later head of security which allowed him to directly manipulate the rest of the main cast while pretending to be a part of their budding resistance movement. Boyd is revealed to be the head of Rossum Corporation, and everything that Adelle has done toward bringing the company down has apparently been all a part of his plan. Revealing that the Magnificent Bitch has been the Unwitting Pawn all along? Magnificent!
    • No love for Alpha? He masterminded the events of season one to get into the Dollhouse, got Echo out, all while playing Ballard for a fool. In season two he pulls off another amazing plan to get back into the Dollhouse all while playing the main cast for suckers.
  • Dreaming in Mono: Hansi von Spitzmark, from this still-quite-obscure short series called. He has a gold medal from every contest he entered, he's a best-selling author, poet, singer, and won the competition that blew the losing protagonist to pieces — and he doesn't even think that much about it. When you've listened to the protagonist's dramatic, tragedy-filled, extensive, long ramblings about the contest, an interview with von Spitzmark rolls. He has only this to say about it.
    Spitzmark: What happened in '74? ...Well, I won. Simple as that.
    • Not to mention that, after hearing about the protagonist's new goal in life, has this to say to him:
    Spitzmark: Alain...please, my friend, get a life. I am serious. Okay? Are we done?
  • Dragnet: Joe Friday has investigated some really magnificent criminals. One of the most notable was the sweet old lady who, every April, October, and December, went on a check-forging spree. So magnificent that it took the LAPD ten years to track her down, and it would have taken longer had she not slipped up. Turns out she was a type of Well-Intentioned Extremist, forging the checks because she couldn't afford all the charities she was donating to, but didn't want to give any of them up.
    • Then we have "Captain" Paul G. Fremont, architect of the National Association of Law Enforcers racket. What makes him a Magnificent Bastard is that he succeeded in tailoring a scam that greatly appealed to the selfish and the altruistic alike; the selfish were interested in the "courtesy cards" that supposedly entitled them to preferential treatment, and the altruistic believed their money would go towards helping to support the next of kin of police killed in the line of duty.

Pretty sure J.D. keeps, he's listed on the "How to..." page, though that one also has the issue of Netflix!Frank being there, so I'd like an EP. I don't watch the others so I'll need help with them.

Edit edit: Screw it, here are E, F and G too:

  • Earth: Final Conflict: Ron Sandoval played virtually everyone else in that series like cheap flutes - Taelon, human, and Jaridian. Mostly, it appeared he was playing them all against each other for mutual destruction out of revenge for the Taelons manipulating him and him being too much of a bastard for most humans' standards.
  • Jamie Moriarty from Series/Elementary, by virtue of being a version of Moriarty and also Irene Adler, effortlessly manipulating Sherlock and messing up his entire life.
  • Fall of Eagles: Otto von Bismarck (played by Curd Jürgens) in the two episodes "The English Princess" and "The Honest Broker". Given that it's a fairly accurate portrayal of the real life Bismarck, who united Germany into one country and then dominated European politics for twenty years.
  • Farscape: Scorpius spent the entire run of the series, plus the Made For DVD Movie holding allegiance only to himself, and doing his darnedest to manipulate every side in his favour... and more or less succeeding by series end. And he accomplished his goals with such intelligence and charm, even his apparent Freudian Excuse is transformed into a rational explanation.
  • Flash Gordon: Ming in the re-imagined series. Unlike his comic book or movie portrayal, this Ming doesn't look like a Fashion-Victim Villain and try to out-ham everyone. Instead, he dresses and acts like a third-world dictator by relying as heavily on propaganda and the media as on his Patriot troops. He wears a (mostly) plain military uniform, except for one episode where he wears a ceremonial cloak for a day of rememberance. He can be ruthless or kind (although, he usually leans towards the former). In one episode, a man is caught smuggling ice, a crime punishable by death on Mongo, as most of the water on the planet is contaminated. When the man pleads that he only did it to save his sick daughter, his words seemingly fall on deaf ears. Then, on the day of the public execution (via a gas chamber), Ming addresses the wife and daughter of the man, publicly promising them several rations of water in order to cure the girl... and then orders the execution of the man anyway. After all, a crime is a crime, no matter the reasons. The name "Ming the Merciless" does show up in an episode, which is revealed to be a nickname given to him by the poor. When he finds out, he personally chokes the entertainer who speaks it. Ming usually prefers "Benevolent Father", and you better use it.
  • The Following: Joe Carroll managed to establish and run a cult from prison, including converting one of the guards assigned to him, allowing him to escape. And then he lets himself be caught again, just so he can mock and string along his FBI captors as they try to catch his "friends", until finally engineering a second jailbreak, and getting away scott free this time. All for the sake of creating a great story.
  • Galavant has a surprising example in Madalena. Magnified by Rewatch Bonus and the triumph it represents on a meta-level.
  • Glee: The cheerleading squad coach Sue Sylvester sinks her teeth into the vicious pettiness of small town high school power politics with a relentlessness that leaves her adversaries stunned by its imperviousness to defeat, deterrence, or sheer weight of the extensively documented evidence of her many crimes.
  • Gabe Duncan, from Good Luck Charlie, is probably the ultimate example of this trope in all of Disney Channel. What earns him this title is that he is a master of manipulation. One example is when he tricked his father by thinking he won the lottery, so that he could go to an amusement park. Later, he does the same thing with his mother's boss and she quits and gives Amy her job back. Another example of his manipulative skills is when he lied to his teacher that his parents fight whenever he gets in trouble he uses this lie to get out of it. He also brought his parents to play by making them believe that there were some things that each spouse didn't like.
  • Gossip Girl: As of the series finale, it would be obscene not to give credit it to Dan Humphrey when it is revealed that he was running the titular site all along. Lying, deceiving, manipulating everyone to achieve his goal, using himself as his own greatest weapon and turning the snobby world of the upper east side against each other to achieve his goal and for his own personal amusement. And he succeeds, leaving everyone completely amazed and impressed by his magnificence.
  • Gotham has Oswald Cobblepot AKA The Penguin. In traditional Batman lore, he's the Gentleman Thief, the evil Bruce Wayne, and the Only Sane Man among Batman's many Crazies, but not usually on the level of being magnificent. However, this version of Oswald, despite his initial pathetic appearance, is a Magnificent Bastard in spades. He begins at the bottom of the old Gotham criminal underworld, stuck as a kiss up and slave to one of the Underbosses (lesser bosses under a bigger gang), and his nickname is still a sign of derision. In the first episode, he's sent to be killed for snitching to Jim Gordon that the mob created a fall guy for the Wayne murder, but due to Gordon's compassion, survives. (Turns out that he'd arranged this himself, knowing Gordon could be persuaded not to kill him.) He resolves to return to Gotham and work his way back to becoming Gotham's new king. Being perceptive and a good reader of people, he then does a series of deals with BOTH criminal heads, slowly carving out his own influence and slowly pitting them against each other and the police for his own benefit. He even once convinced an old woman to murder her husband for a ticket to Arizona, just because he had only one shotgun shell left to cover his tracks, and before that, talked his way out of certain death by car crusher, while still inside the car! But the best part about Cobblepot here is that it only takes one season before he gets his main rivals killed off or forced into retirement, and actually does become the greatest crime lord in Gotham.

Pretty sure Cobblepot is a Dirty Coward. I doubt the scope of anyone's schemes in Gossip Girl are grand enough to count, same goes for Good Luck, Charlie and Glee. Going from notes on this site about Joe Carroll, he seems to be too vicious of a Complete Monster. Scorpius might be a good one but I'd like to see an EP. Really don't know enough about the rest to comment but feel free to bring them up if anyone wants them put back and rewritten.

[down] Can you EP? The fact they're both CMs (well, some of the Master's incarnations are) makes me want to see the pros and cons. Yeah, I'm fine with single incarnations of the Master being EP'd individually.

edited 22nd May '18 3:49:20 PM by 43110

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#933: May 22nd 2018 at 3:34:51 PM

Doctor Who fan here.

I've not watched everything, so can't comment on some of these but from what i know:

The Master is the easiest keep from here. Though somone like Lighty w hoose more familiar with his pre-revival versions should do the EP (EP's if we're taking each version on its own).

edited 22nd May '18 3:42:51 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#934: May 22nd 2018 at 3:51:46 PM

Since the Roleplay page is the shortest page, are any of the examples worth keeping?


  • Liz Polanski on Survival Of The Fittest V4 is becoming this. She disabled her collar, and broke a camera (which would normally lead the the collar exploding) to demonstrate that it didn't work. When Danya had another student's collar blow up because of it; she decided to destroy all the cameras she could find just to make Danya look stupid..
  • The Porcelain Lady also known as "Pseudonym" Jones from Delicious Friends. Positively delights in making Vincent look stupid in as many inventive ways as possible.
  • From Dino Attack RPG, we have Dust. He is a Manipulative Bastard, using Dino Attack Team as his pawns in his quest to find his ancestor's temple, all the while being a devious yet charismatic Smug Snake. In addition to fitting all the criteria, Dust is among the RPG's most popular primary characters for his unique and well-written characterization.
  • Infinite Justice has a few canon characters, as well as Sonja Delacroix, a multibillionaire businesswoman and international crime queen, who effortlessly manipulates events in Gotham by killing Kyle Vannis, causing his goons to go crazy and start rampaging across Gotham, to force the GCPD into paying her a hefty fee to aid in cleaning the streets. In addition, she has apparently figured out Batman's secret identity.

edited 22nd May '18 3:51:57 PM by costanton11

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#935: May 22nd 2018 at 3:56:32 PM

All are pretty badly written, I'll ask for them to be cut and we can just request the page be taken down for now at least.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#936: May 22nd 2018 at 4:03:16 PM

On the MagnificentBastard.Theatre page, here are the remaining Shakespeare entries.

  • A more restrained Shakespearean example of a Magnificent Bastard (and, in fact, a real-life example) is Octavius Caesar in Antony and Cleopatra. He pulls a string of Xanatos Gambits, such as marrying his own sister to Antony to force him either to shame Caesar (and thus provide him with an excuse for war) or bend the knee, manipulates nearly everyone he meets (bar Cleopatra), defeats the more militarily adept Antony through a Batman Gambit, has truly grandiose plans, and, unlike most of the other examples here, ends up as the most powerful man in all the world and Emperor of the Roman Empire.
  • William Shakespeare's Magnificent Bastard par excellence is Richard III. Born with a slew of Red Right Hands and a truly twisted intellect, he takes to villainy, manipulation, and plans like a fish to water. He also possesses an unparalleled wit and charisma despite being deformed, managing to seduce the wife of a man he murdered over the man's corpse. He talks to the audience more than almost any other Shakespeare character, letting them in on his plans, and sharing his triumphs in wonderfully gloating asides. He's a vile and utterly self-centered man, but it's just about impossible not to admire how damn good he is at it. How much the real Richard III lived up to the "bastard" half of the equation is a matter of much controversy in historical circles.
  • The three witches in Macbeth persuade a great hero to murder his king and become a bloody tyrant, all without even explicitly encouraging murder until he is steeped in it already.
    • Lady Macbeth is practically the whole driving force of the first half of the story, being the one who sets up the whole plot to kill King Duncan but in Act II she suffers Villainous Breakdown and is revealed to be more of a Smug Snake.
  • Aaron The Moor from Titus Andronicus really needs a mention as well.
    • This play was basically Shakespeare's idea of putting an entire cast of magnificent bastards on one stage and watching them (literally) eat each other.
  • King Lear's Edmund. A bastard in every sense of the word, Edmund is an evil manipulator of the Iago variety, but he's also way cooler than his legitimate half brother Edgar, who, while not (particularly) stupid, is a total stiff. Edmund lies, forges, betrays, and seduces his way to the top, but part of you still can't help liking him. Especially since he actually says in a speech, "Stand up for bastards!" No apologies.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#937: May 22nd 2018 at 4:05:31 PM

[up][up]Im going to be honest. I'm not all that familiar with pre-revival stuff, so somone like Lighty would need to handle the EP on Unit era and Tremas master. I can give you an EP's for Harold Saxxon (I don't be live he qualfies for a variety of reasons) and Missy (I could make a case)

edited 22nd May '18 4:06:07 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#938: May 22nd 2018 at 4:14:27 PM

Hmm... I'd say only make a case for the one you think keeps and I'll cover asking for those theatre examples cut.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#939: May 22nd 2018 at 7:26:29 PM

I believe Owsald shed his Dirty Coward tendencies in the Season 1 finale. That said he still seems prone to breaking down easily whenever things don't go according to plan.

Also I found this on the YMMV page for Watch_Dogs 2

Magnificent Bastard: Dusan Nemec is the only villain who can back up his self-confidence repeatedly pulling fast ones on Ded Sec and nearly outright winning when he tricks them into making his own sales pitch.

Cut? tongue

edited 22nd May '18 7:27:56 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#941: May 22nd 2018 at 7:32:00 PM

Yeah, Oswald is too self confident at any point to make this one.

Cut for now but I think I'll look into that one, Dusan might make it.

Trope page calls him a Smug Snake but I'll watch a Let's Play and decide for myself.

edited 22nd May '18 7:43:57 PM by 43110

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#942: May 22nd 2018 at 8:36:39 PM

On YMMV.Shrek Forever After:

Not sure about Rumpelstitlskin, but the Pied Piper is more of a neutral character and doesn't have enough characterization to count.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#943: May 22nd 2018 at 9:24:18 PM

Rumpel is also too much of a cruel Smug Snake.

edited 22nd May '18 9:25:17 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#944: May 23rd 2018 at 6:07:35 AM

From MagnificentBastard.Video Games

  • Sonic the Hedgehog:
    • Dr. Eggman can sometimes be depicted like this. Some examples include him controlling the Time Eater with the help of his past self with the goal of undoing his previous defeats in Sonic Generations, tricking Sonic (while in his super form) to let his guard down long enough to extract the energy of the Chaos Emeralds from him and turn him into a werehog in Sonic Unleashed, and faking his death to power up his ultimate weapon while having Sonic get rid of the Deadly Six for him and put his plan back in motion in Sonic Lost World.
    • Shadow the Hedgehog was actually quite an impressive one in Sonic Adventure 2. He manipulated Eggman into thinking he was working for him so that he could get all the Chaos Emeralds in order to activate the Colony Drop, and even knew about Rouge's attempt to grab the Emeralds herself. In fact, the only reason he didn't succeed was that, with Amy's intervention, he decided to not go through with the plan after all.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#945: May 23rd 2018 at 6:14:08 AM

Uh. I can accept some versions of Eggman counting. But overall, cut them.

Shadow was a Anti-Villain in that other Sonic game, right? Because if he was in his usual Anti-Hero self, cut it.

Cut it anyway, but I would like how's the case with Shadow.

Watch me destroying my country
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#946: May 23rd 2018 at 6:49:36 AM

I don't think we've got any Sonic ones right now (at least from the games; I think a case could be made for Mammoth Mogul there) and from what I remember of Buffy there? I think there could be a case for Sweets. As for the theater ones, I'll handle Edmund a bit later since I think he's one of the easiest cases to make there.

edited 23rd May '18 6:54:33 AM by Scraggle

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#947: May 23rd 2018 at 8:50:23 AM

Of the Shakespeare examples I can see keeping Edmund and Octavian/Augustus. The Witches and Lady Macbeth are obvious cuts, and Aaron the Moor should likely go as well. Richard III is an example that really, really depends on the actor because the text can be interpreted as MB and Smug Snake alike.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#948: May 23rd 2018 at 9:05:00 AM

Alright...Another EP for me and it's from a cartoon that I recently finished...Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego. And I think the titular character counts for this trope. Without further ado...Let's begin the EP shall we

What's the Work

Where on Earth is Carmen Sandiego is a 90s cartoons based on the educational computer game of the same name. So the story is about Carmen Sandiego who led an organization called V.I.L.E. And steal many precious treasure across the world and leaves some clues for the rookie ACME agents, Zack and Ivy who is the main protagonist of the tv series in order to find where she had been. And yes, the watcher of the show also played as the Player and it's also implied that this television series is a video game that they are playing...

Of course! Judging by the title and the work itself. You know whom I will bring alright? Ladies and gentleman....Meet the world's famous thief...Carmen Sandiego.

Who Is She/What Has She Done

Well, to give you a simple detail...Carmen Sandiego is a famous thief who stole a lot of famous things along with her henchmen. One great example is on her establishing character moment in the first episode...Where she stole Vincent Van Gogh's painting eyes in a museum from Amsterdam and then distract some of the police who tried to capture her by leaving a decoy on her plane. She then challenges the player to find her. Throughout the series, she leaves a lot of clues and patterns (In the first episode, the pattern of the stolen object was a pieces of a famous painting) in order to capture her. However, most of the time, she succeed on fleeing from the two rookie agents and the police. She also does the same thing in most of the episode like rinse and repeat stuff so no comment in here.

And yeah, A little bit of backstory about Carmen Sandiego before she became a world's famous thief...Carmen was grown up in a San Francisco Orphanage before working with ACME and it was implied that she was the daughter of the millionaire, Malcolm Avalon, who died in the hotel fire. After ACME recruited her, she became one of ACME's top agents in the tutor of Detective Suhara, However, as the time went by, she became bored and ended up becoming what she is now...The World's famous thief so that she could challenge not only the players but also the detective themselves.

Is she charming,charismatic,Thinks on her feet?

Well, for the charming and charismatic part...I don't know about this but throughout the show...She is mostly affably evil towards the protagonists and sometimes taunting the player. However, her taunt is more like a two friends hanging around with each other and she's mostly acting jovially towards the players...And sometimes she could always leave a quote from famous writers or philosophers to the players themselves when she got away.

And as far as thinking on her feet part goes...She sometimes leaves the clues towards the protagonists in order to find where she had been. But not because she's an idiot...It's because she's actually wants to challenge the protagonists' mind and most of her clues are sometimes hard to solve and need some good thinking. And when it comes to get captured, she sometimes flees with her gadgets or using manipulation skills (Like for example, in episode Cupid Sandiego where she saw Zach and his friend talking about his friend trying to date his sister, she tried to distract them with that conversation so that she could steal a DNA scanner that Zach's friend made. Or in one instance where she got captured by one of her henchman...She then uses the opportunity to team-up with Zach and Ivy and then she runs away thanks to them helping her)...And yeah, while she got captured in Volgogard,Russia in the Season 4 two-part finale...Interestingly enough, she still able to easily scape from the custody once her implied father, Malcolm, was captured by Lee Jordan so yeah...

For the competitions...There are people like Dr. Maelstrom who almost pulls the same gambit as Carmen. However, unlike Dr. Maelstrom...Most of the time she always succeeded in her plans and spending her time as a Karma Houdini so yeah...I think she passes here.

Is she a bastard? Too much?

Well, Carmen is no saint...As she is a master thief who was reviled by most of the people and also being the most wanted criminal and ACME's number one target. But even then, she only treats her thieving hobbies more as a mental challenge towards both of the players and the protagonist themselves. And she also has her own personal code and standards. As while she does stole some of the famous objects or landmarks...She never intends to keep it and despise using brute forces or engaging a wanton destruction like Dr. Maelstrom,Lee Jordan or Sarah Bellum.

And not only that, she also doesn't want to harm or kill her rival ACME agents. And in one instance, she saves the protagonists' live from drowning. And despite being rejected by Malcolm Avalon because she isn't his daughter...She still try to protect him from harm and forced herself to work for Lee just because she doesn't want to see Malcolm getting hurt. And not only that, in one instance, she sometimes work together with fellow ACME agents whether it's to escaping from her Starscream (When It Rains) or becoming an anti-hero to stop the criminal for his ultimate plan that could cause a massive flood just to get Noah's Ark (Retribution) soooo yea....

Final Verdict

Tl;dr...While Carmen is reviled by everyone around her. She's still has her own personal code that she won't violate,she only saw her thievery as a mind game more than anything,she sometimes work together with the players or in one instance save them from harm and lastly, she still capable of caring towards some people like her father....So I think Carmen is a yea in my opinion. But I think I would be fine if you decide for her

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#949: May 23rd 2018 at 9:11:28 AM

I’m going with a yes there.

I need to double check on Aaron but he could be a keeper. He really escapes being portrayed as a racial stereotype (perhaps accidentally) and is weirdly one of the more human villains in the play if only because he loves his own child. That said, I don’t remember if he was involved the the plan to rape Lavinia or if that was just Tamora and Chiron and Demetrius.

As for Richard? I think really stretches to disqualify himself in the end. By about midway Richard is a raving paranoid madman breaking down and fails to anticipate the betrayal of the Stanley forces. I would also argue he stops being the charming magnificent rogue when he has his young nephews murdered

edited 23rd May '18 9:16:15 AM by Lightysnake

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#950: May 23rd 2018 at 9:13:29 AM

[tup]Carmen.

Loved that show when I was growing up and can give an easy yes.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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