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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9451: May 9th 2019 at 10:02:43 AM

Mmm... I wouldn't quite say it's choice in being a "Bastard" that's the big thing but that the "Magnificent" and the "Bastard" have to exist in one character. If one person is bright but not a villain at all and it's just a brainwashed version of them that's a "Bastard", then the MB doesn't really exist to be a candidate in the first place. If XANA-William were say some Made of Evil monster who didn't have a choice in being what he was but both "parts" existed at the same time, I wouldn't take an issue.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#9452: May 9th 2019 at 10:02:44 AM

I don't accept that rule. I see it as no different from being Made of Evil, raised to believe this stuff or hit by some disease that removes your morality or something.

This is just something I have to live with I guess.

[up][up] I have no opinion on the candidate presented.

Edited by PolarPhantom on May 9th 2019 at 6:03:05 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9453: May 9th 2019 at 10:04:16 AM

If you've got something to add, by all means, feel free to, Polar. This thread is relatively young and the rules aren't carved into a stone tablet or anything.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#9454: May 9th 2019 at 10:06:42 AM

Yeah, go ahead and speak, Polar.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#9455: May 9th 2019 at 10:07:14 AM

XANA itself has moral agency. It chose to destroy humanity of its own volition but otherwise doesn't count individually because it is too evil and sadistic in the ways it tried to kill off humanity. With that being said, since XANA-William is basically possessed by the same AI, I'm leaning towards a "no" there.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9456: May 9th 2019 at 10:08:12 AM

[tdown] Xana-William

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9457: May 9th 2019 at 10:08:40 AM

Yeah, I was gonna say: the sense I'm getting from this discussion is that whatever evil aka "Bastard" components that show up in William are a result of XANA's will; while the "Magnificent" flares are just bits of William's personality showing up. The character isn't a singular whole of the tropes' components.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#9458: May 9th 2019 at 10:10:14 AM

OK... what if... someone was cursed so that their dark side took over? And they're a bastard and magnificent? Would you all consider that fair game?

Really, I'm just trying to see what the standards are here.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9459: May 9th 2019 at 10:13:02 AM

Most likely. Adding a bit to that: provided said "dark side" is a character of its own and the work isn't going out of its way to indicate the feats of intelligence, charm, etc. come from the original personality and the lacks of morals are the only thing the darker side is contributing.

Edited by 43110 on May 9th 2019 at 1:17:23 PM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#9461: May 9th 2019 at 10:26:03 AM

OK, so, what if the person is hit by something accidental. Like, lightning bolt fries their brain reducing their empathy. They are smart and amoral due to this. Is that too iffy?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9463: May 9th 2019 at 10:33:03 AM

I smell an effortpost.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9464: May 9th 2019 at 10:36:11 AM

I think he's just asking for clarification at the moment but that's just the sense I'm getting. Also @Georgie, I wanna thank you for bringing us William, since it got us to have a conversation about standards and interpretations of rules we needed to have and I think provided all of us with a more solid grasp of the trope itself. Hope you stick around!

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#9466: May 9th 2019 at 11:10:10 AM

I wasn't sure that he would be allowed since he's Brainwashed and Crazy, but nah, I'm the one who should thank you because you helped me see if Brainwashed and Crazy characters would count. Since I doesn't seems to be the case, I'm alright with the downvoting. But yeah, for me on TV Tropes, it's only the beginning and I've been thinking about other candidates so I'll definitely stick around.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9467: May 9th 2019 at 11:11:34 AM

So, the film came out two Thursdays ago technically...anyone mind if I do You-Know-Who?

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#9468: May 9th 2019 at 11:17:52 AM

I think having a Brainwashed and Crazy charachter Is fine, not quite seeing the differance between it and other Agency Damaging stuff.

The issue from what I'm reading is that He isn't One charachter. Xana is Outright controlling him, as opposed to just Xana brainwashing William into Being his Minion then William would Lack Agency still be his own charachter. This Isn't just making William a minion, it's making William a puppet. If that makes sense.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#9469: May 9th 2019 at 11:23:35 AM

"Xana is Outright controlling him, as opposed to just Xana brainwashing William into Being his Minion then William would Lack Agency still be his own charachter. This Isn't just making William a minion, it's making William a puppet. If that makes sense."

Actually, I pointed out that XANA brainwashed William into being his minion, it didn't control him directly. XANA-William even refers to XANA by using the third person and in "William Returns", he even acknowledges that he's been brainwashed.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9470: May 9th 2019 at 11:33:53 AM

[up][up][up] Oh god please do so. I’m excited.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on May 9th 2019 at 2:37:03 PM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#9471: May 9th 2019 at 11:36:22 AM

You know....I'm Gonna go against the popular opinion and give a [tup] to Xana-William.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9472: May 9th 2019 at 11:36:37 AM

Yes go ahead, or yes you mind?

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9473: May 9th 2019 at 11:37:21 AM

[up] Yes please go ahead. tongue

Sorry for lack of clarification, I’ve just been really looking forward to this.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on May 9th 2019 at 2:39:25 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#9475: May 9th 2019 at 11:44:47 AM

Alright, so here goes another one to remove from the backburner.

What is the work?

The Powerpuff Girls is a 1998 animated television series released by Cartoon Network. The premise of the series is pretty much already universally known, so here is the candidate.

Who is he? What has he done?

The Gnome. The Gnome is a minor antagonist who appeared in the season 5 episode "See Me, Feel Me, Gnomey," a musical episode which was initially to be the final episode of the series. In the episode, the girls become overpowered by the Rogues Gallery that the city of Townsville had to offer, and they become depressed. Suddenly, a drop of rain falls from the sky, and a rose appears.

Inside of that rose was the nameless Gnome who, after hearing the girls' cries, offers to rid the town of all of the evil, but they must forfeit their powers and give them to him. The girls initially find it absurd, but in desperation they relent. The Gnome then uses their powers to defeat the town's villains, and the citizens immediately view him as their savior. With a seemingly established utopia, the residents form a cult around the Gnome. The girls meanwhile celebrated the turn of events but are made to realize by Professor Utonium that despite the Gnome getting rid of the bad guys, he had deprived the citizens of Townsville of their free will. As part of the deal, the girls regain their powers as a result of the Gnome becoming corrupted.

They confront the Gnome at his "palace" and after he used up the last of his powers due to blasting the girls with them, he falls to his death. In his final moments, the Gnome has a Heel Realization of becoming what he sought to destroy and rationalizes that he couldn't exist in his perfect utopia. His final lyrics also indicate that apparently he committed suicide willingly.

Is he intelligent? Charismatic?

Yes. He takes advantage of the girls' plight and effortlessly manipulates them into giving him their powers. He then arranges for the citizens of Townsville to worship him.

Is he a bastard?

While he succeeds at ridding Townsville of evil, he quickly asserts himself as the ruler and robs the town of their free will.

Also, this is probably unconfirmed, but this episode was banned for whatever reason. Some believe that the episode was removed from circulation because of the Gnome representing communism (what with the color red and Utonium singing "Freedom Beef" to get the girls motivated to take down the Gnome). However, it's more or less just a theory.

Too much of a bastard?

He started off with initially believing that what he was doing was right and when he falls to his death, he realizes the error of his ways and wills himself to die.

Can he think on his feet?

Gets the Powerpuff Girls to give him their powers so that he could get rid of the rogues gallery. Yes there.

Verdict

Unsure, but another one is off the backburner. Thoughts?


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