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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#9376: May 6th 2019 at 10:49:00 PM

That Mettatron one ought to be a good one.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9377: May 7th 2019 at 3:23:16 AM

Just cut the following unauthorized entry from Arkham Asylum: Living Hell on the basis of the character in question being listed as a hate sink.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 7th 2019 at 6:35:03 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9378: May 7th 2019 at 11:00:04 AM

Okay, I left this for too long:

  • Superman Red Son: Lex Luthor is a brilliant scientist at S.T.A.R labs seeking to defeat Superman, the 'alien', to prove himself and humanity superior to all others. Having the satellite Sputnik plummet to Metropolis to trick Superman into saving the city, Luthor harvests his genetic material to create a clone he then unleashes for his plans, later assisting the Russian Batman against Superman from the shadows. Later becoming President and saving America from ruin, Luthor continues to plot against Superman, Luthor eventually breaks the would-be benevolent dictator with the phrase "Why don't you just put the whole WORLD in a BOTTLE, Superman?" Which triggers superman to give his life to stop Brainiac and Luthor's victory, Luthor crafting a 'Global United States' with an unparalleled era of peace and prosperity.

DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
#9379: May 7th 2019 at 12:08:14 PM

Here is my write-up for G-Man from Hunt Down the Freeman:

  • In this fan game, the G-Man is portrayed as a cunning and powerful trickster. During Black Mesa incident he has Adam beat Mitchell up with a crowbar under disguise of Gordon Freeman. Afterwards he makes a deal with a gravely wounded Mitchell, promising him authority, power and time in exchange for killing Gordon when the time comes. During the Seven Hour War the G-Man orchestrates the deaths of anyone with a rank higher than Mitchell's, leading to the latter becoming the captain of Avalon Vale. Three years later he rescues Boris and his daughter Sasha after the Combine factory's destruction and makes a deal with the former, getting him out of the cold and back into City 17. Seventeen years later he reminds Mitchell of the deal and intimidates him into starting the hunt and joining the Combine. After that G-Man orders Adam to kill Sasha and frame Mitchell up. Eventually, the G-Man explains that since Combine forces will be looking for Mitchell, Gordon Freeman will have much less trouble to deal with. Initially abandoning Mitchell to his fate, the G-Man is implied to have provided him with support to deal with the Combine and then kill Adam. Always keeping his charm, the G-Man manages to interwine the deals he made with Mitchell, Boris and Adam into getting the outcome that he and his employers wanted.

You can change it however you want.

Edited by DukeNukem4ever on May 7th 2019 at 1:23:49 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#9380: May 7th 2019 at 2:49:54 PM

Hey, Lighty, you got anything planned here for MK 11 or the rest of the series? I got that thing I showed you, but I don't wanna step on your toes or steal your thunder.

Heh. Just remembered Raiden controls thunder.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9381: May 7th 2019 at 2:55:49 PM

No, no, go right ahead here.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#9382: May 7th 2019 at 3:09:03 PM

Hey. Mortal Kombat's a thing.

Well, I got a weird candidate today.

What is the wor-

It's Mortal Kombat. Do I gotta explain? Ah, Fandom Myopia strikes. Fine. In brief, people fight from various different realms to protect or to konquer others, usually in very bloody fashion. The game we're talking about today? Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance. One of those weird games they made in the PS 2/Gamecube/Xbox era.

Who is the character?

Nitara is a scantily clad vampire lady whose realm was taken by Shao Kahn and merged with Outworld. Seeking to free her Realm, Nitara finds an orb which if broken, will free her Realm. But it's, uh, submerged in lava. She needs Cyrax to help out because his cyborg body can stand the heat. So, Cyrax has an arm panel which lets him travel between Realms - we are never told how Nitara finds this out but it's not a huge plot hole. We can just assume she spied on him or went to Earthrealm herself to find out. Oh, and how'd she do that? She has a magic necklace which lets her and others travel between realms - she uses it to feed on other races' blood because Vampires amirite? She manipulates Reptile by presenting him with a rare artifact of his long lost race. When Reptile finds Shao Kahn dead - long story but it's actually a klone - Reptile decides to pledge loyalty to Nitara for her kindness. She orders him to attack Cyrax and damage his arm panel to strand Cyrax in Outworld. Reptile does it and retreats. Nitara immediately approaches Cyrax and makes her offer - the orb for return home. Having no other choice he agrees and Nitara keeps her end of the bargain and successfully restores her realm. Happily ever after

well, until Armageddon arrives. Not much notable happens to her. Vampires are being killed by Ashrah, she goes after Ashrah, ends up in the final battle and like everyone else save Shao Kahn and a handful of others she dies. And in her character ending she becomes a blood god and turns everyone in the battle into vampire slaves and then Konquers the Realms.

Armageddon was weird.

Is she a bitch?

She's pretty much neutral, but she is manipulative enough to count with her gaining Reptile's favour to sic on Cyrax to force Cyrax to help her.

Too much?

Nah. She's not even as bad as Kano or - dare I invoke his name - Hsu Hao. She's loyal to her people, drinks blood because she gotta eat, keeps her deal with Cyrax etc.

Is she magnificent?

By her own cunning did she free her Realm from Shao Kahn. This is no mean feat considering how hard this is depicted to be. Even in modern MK games Kotal Kahn wants Outworld united and strong despite being a pretty neat guy all things considered.

I gotta say, her plan, while simple, I quite like.

Is she kool enough tho?

I mean... she's usually seen as one of the bad characters from this era. You know, the one where only Kenshi was an unmitigated success with maybe Frost, Havik and a few others having decent fandoms. But this is mostly because her design is... not good. She's a stripperrific vampire. That's her appearance. It's pretty bland and blatantly fanservicey. But I can see why she has some fans. She has a genuinely interesting backstory, motivation and role in the series. There are many who want her back for MK 11 and I think, with the current team, they could do her justice; count me as someone who wants her back. So I'd say she makes it.

Though Ed Boon doesn't seem to like her (when someone asked if Nitara would come back on Twitter he bluntly said "No") so don't hold your breath.

Konklusion

For a pretty minor character? I think she does it well enough. Thoughts?

Oh, and I will go over some other characters later and talk about why they don't count - and point out one that might but I haven't read the comics myself so I won't be doing him.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#9383: May 7th 2019 at 3:14:23 PM

Sure to Nitara

Being fair though it Wasnt until X where we get a group of new Kharcaters were most of them were well recived.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9385: May 7th 2019 at 3:29:57 PM

[tup] Nitara

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#9387: May 7th 2019 at 3:47:16 PM

[tup] to Nitara I wonder who else can count in MK

Edited by G-Editor on May 7th 2019 at 12:47:27 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#9388: May 7th 2019 at 4:00:36 PM

Lights camera action!

What's the Work?

Undertale is a 2015 indie game made by Toby Fox. In it you play as a young human child who has fallen into the Underground, a land filled with monsters who were put there after losing a war with humanity long ago. The child is menaced by various monsters, trying to take their SOUL, and soon learns that in order to escape the underground it requires a monster to carry a human SOUL to pass through the Barrier keeping them in and that King Asgore is trying to amass six human SOULS in order to break the barrier and invade the Surface. In the game, every monster can be defeated non lethally and there are 3 man story routes, Pacifist where no one is killed, Neutral where some are killed, and Genocide where every monster is killed.

Who's Mettaton and what does he do?

Mettaton was once a ghost who is the cousin of Napstablook and wished to become a star. To this end he had the Royal Scientist Alphys create a robot body for him to inhabit which allowed him to leave home and become the monster's most famous (and only) star. He's the main villain in the fourth area, Hotland.

From here I'll discuss the different story paths. In the Neutral and Pacifist routes Mettaton helps Alphys with her goal to impress the human enough for them to stay and be her friend. Mettaton creates several death traps for the human, each with the aesthetic of a different kind of show hosted by him. In reality Mettaton desires to kill the human in order to cross the barrier and become a star to the humans and prevent Asgore from invading the Surface. He hires several mercenaries, rearranges the CORE in order to lead them into a trap and usurps Alphys' big moment to attack the human personally. The human tricks him into turning around so they can flip the switch on his back. This causes him to transform from his normally invincible form into Mettaton EX, a Bishonen form that is vulnerable to damage. If he's killed he congratulates the human, saying that they're likely strong enough to defeat Asgore. If the human raises the ratings of the show enough during the fight, Mettaton starts taking viewer call-ins. The calls cause him to realize that the monsters don't have any stars aside from him. He decides to stay to entertain the monsters instead of leaving, saying the human may be strong enough to get past Asgore. Either way he takes his defeat in stride, thanking his audience before dying (neutral route) or running out of power (pacifist route). If the player goes on to get the Golden Ending, he encourages Alphys to hook up with her crush Undyne and forms a band with Napstablook and their friend Shyren.

In the Genocide route Mettaton takes on a much more passive role, briefly confronting the player at the beginning of Hotland but backing off at first. He shows up at the end, transforming into Mettaton NEO, despite this he still dies in one shot. If the player has killed everyone in Hotland he makes a quip about the human not wanting to join his fan club and dying. If the player hasn't killed all of the monsters in Hotland he says that they were holding back and won't be a threat to humanity, dying happy that Alphys and the humans are safe.

Thinks on His Feet?

He doesn't do this too much but he proves to be good at improvising lines when Alphys goes off script during the fake death traps. He also took advantage of the deaths of most of the other important monsters in order to take over in one of the Neutral Endings.

Mitigating Factors?

He's very much a Jerk With A Heart Of Gold towards Alphys and Napstablook/ He takes opportunities to belittle Alphys and humiliates her during one of the games.He also ditched Napstablook to get his body despite promising to stick together in show business. In all paths he shows that he cares for one or both of them, expressing concern for their safety or fondness for them depending on the situation.

His hotel is also very incompetent, having a fountain pouring onto the ground among other oversights. There is the point about him being tricked into turning around but he does take the slip up in stride and like what 43 says, it isn't taken very seriously as a mistake. He doesn't come off as a Smug Snake because of it, at least not to me.

Now here's my biggest concern with him. The ending where he takes over has him becoming something of a tyrant. He's stated to have, "brainwashed" the monsters with his TV show and makes everything in his image, according to Papyrus he's not making things any better and anyone who questions him disappears. His attitude during the phone call has him almost desperately trying to downplay the problems the monsters are having, causing him to lose his composure briefly.

His inflated ego would be a problem if he didn't also clearly care for the other monsters so I don't think that it's a big mark against him. The few times he loses his composure don't last and the last time we see him in each ending has him smiling and saying something nice.

Final Verdict?

I leave it up to you darlings! (sorry if this is long, there's a lot to cover).

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#9389: May 7th 2019 at 4:03:54 PM

[tup] to Mettaton. The definition of the Awesome Ego(With a glorious boss Theme https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2TgO-tN5wAM )

Also [tup] to Nitara.

Edited by Kylotrope on May 7th 2019 at 4:05:50 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#9390: May 7th 2019 at 4:09:11 PM

I’m at work right now so I can’t talk much currently, but I should note that his incompetence in running the MTT resort has actual in-universe justification - Burgerpants says that Mettaton is trying to emulate how things are done on the Surface, but he just doesn’t understand human culture quite right. He’s not the only monster who does this either - Undyne, for one, thinks anime is real.

I’ll cast a vote when I’m done with my shift. Just gotta think on him a little more.

Edited by DocSharp on May 7th 2019 at 5:07:44 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9393: May 7th 2019 at 5:06:20 PM

[tup]Mettaton

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#9396: May 7th 2019 at 6:25:09 PM

After mulling it over, this is my vote for Mettaton. A yes to Nitara, as well.

[down] Only if you're entirely okay with it - in which case, it'd be my pleasure!

[down] Oi, don't feel bad, that was just me being a baby back there. If you didn't bring him up, I probably wouldn't have. It's all good, bro. Ya did a good job. smile

Edited by DocSharp on May 7th 2019 at 6:44:45 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#9397: May 7th 2019 at 6:28:23 PM

Doc if you want you can take over on the write up. You'd probably do much better on it than me.

[tup] Nitana

[up] I'm fine with it, the writeup I did for Cladwell wasn't very good and I feel kind of bad for taking the EP away from you.

Edited by papyru30 on May 7th 2019 at 7:35:08 AM

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#9398: May 7th 2019 at 6:50:04 PM

[tup]Nitana, Mettaton

Edited by lrrose on May 7th 2019 at 9:50:18 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#9400: May 7th 2019 at 6:57:17 PM

I'm fine with Metatton going up.


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