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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9351: May 6th 2019 at 2:39:14 PM

Hesitance due to a seeming double standard aside, i think I will resume giving my approval to Frank.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#9352: May 6th 2019 at 2:47:24 PM

I think it's good to keep the values of the setting in mind when asking "is this character too bigoted to be an MB"?

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#9354: May 6th 2019 at 4:15:39 PM

  • American Gangster: Frank Lucas is the Affably Evil but utterly ruthless former right-hand man of crime lord "Bumpy" Johnson, who seeks to bring order back to Harlem in the midst of the power vacuum created by his boss's death. A pragmatic schemer, Frank manages to utterly monopolize the Harlem drug market with his strategic business practices, built on the principles of honor, integrity, hard work, and family, inspiring loyalty amongst his community and his subordinates. His influence becomes so great that he is able to shoot a rival in the head in a crowded market and just walk away like nothing happened, and he manages to operate for half a decade right under the NYPD's noses, cultivating the image of a well-meaning patriarch and family man. Upon his capture, Frank puts his own hatred of the police force behind him to assist Richie Roberts's investigation, bringing down corrupt cops and effectively putting three quarters of the entire Drug Enforcement Agency behind bars, while also getting his 70-year sentence reduced by 55 years. A man that lives by a code, despite the violent nature of his business and upbringing, Frank Lucas instills devotion in his followers, respect in even the clean-cut cop Roberts, and fear in his enemies, operating by his wits and willpower while simultaneously exploiting a massive Cassandra Truth; that a black man in the 1960s has managed to rise to power.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#9355: May 6th 2019 at 5:06:14 PM

Next up... The promised follow-up to Moriarty.

Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?

The Assassin of Shinjuku, one of the Phantom Troupe, Yan Qing is one of the ruffians introduced in the "Water Margin," one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature. Despite his small build, he's handsome, has outstanding martial skills and excels in performance with musical instruments.

As a result of the events of the Shinjuku chapter, Yan Quing's Saint Graph, the essence of a Heroic Spirit in short, has been merged with the Phantom Spirit of the original Doppleganger, a murderer that transforms into others, then murders them. While he would normally be a chivalrous thief, in the vein of his original legend, and while his strong personality prevents the Phantom Spirit from taking control, it does stain his mind.

Yan Quing's first appearance in Shinjuku is an Establishing Character Moment par excellence and the reason why I considered him. He actually approaches the Protagonist under the guise of Cursed Arm Hassan, an ally during the Camelot Singularity into the first major Story Arc. It works perfectly because Shinjuku is where "Evil" and "Anti-Heroic" Servants thrive. Feigning affability and camaraderie, Yan Quing as Cursed Arm takes advantage of the Protagonist's naivete and lures them outside. He then reveals himself. Before Saber Alter, Jeanne Alter, and Moriarty could stop him, Yan Quing grabs the Protagonist, and with a cheerful "Adios, amigos," Flash Steps out of there with the Protagonist to their hideout.

In light of Moriarty's true plan, this meant Yan Quing put the Protagonist in a position to be hit by the asteroid that would destroy the world thanks to the Freeshooter's 7th Bullet. It would've worked too if it weren't for Sherlock Holmes, also disguised as a different Heroic Spirit, being forced to reveal himself and free the Protagonist.

The Protagonist and his allies realize they cannot do much more so long as Yan Quing is around. He can just disguise himself or slip around their attacks and do it all over again. So, they take the fight to his area. Saber Alter, Jeanne Alter, and the Protagonist dress up to invade an extravagant party held by him. He's currently in disguise as another Servant and cannot be revealed right now. In addition, he's flanked by his best guards to ensure no funny business.

But with Holmes and the good half of Moriarty working together, they manage to corner Yan Quing. After the ensuing fight, Yan Quing is forced to detonate the venue in one last attempt to flee. In the wreckage, he fakes being an injured passerby asking for help, but Sherlock (having grown accustomed to his ways) sees through it. He's promptly struck down.

Magnificent enough (Charming, charismatic, intelligent, etc.)?

He's very much a charming, affable fellow. In the area of the Shinjuku district he presides over, Yan Quing is loved, throwing extravagant parties that his folks, who are mainly aristocrats (go figure), come and indulge in. He boasts of his skill and speed while using his martial arts to beat down or outmaneuver enemies, but Yan Quing is so charming and worthy of an opponent, he can actually back up his talk.

The one drawback to using the Doppelgänger's powers is that he experiences the memories and feelings of the person he impersonates, meaning that he is in danger of forgetting who he is when taking a disguise. He decides to limit these later on, keeping the transformation partial so he won't be fully affected by them, thanks to his strong will. He uses his disguises expertly; his very introduction has him conduct Flaw Exploitation with a cheery smile and a poignant Death Glare after fooling everyone. Even afterwards, a plan required the protagonist dressing up as the opposite sex to make Yan Quing react with surprise when they take off their costume. His ruses were that iron-clad.

Bastard? Too much?

An accomplice to the Phantom Troupe whose stated goal is "destroy the planet" all for Fame Through Infamy. And he tried to kill the Protagonist by dropping them from the sky. Duh. But that's really it. He's just guilty by association and enables the dark district that is Shinjuku

Competition?

Moriarty is his boss, and I just showed you his MB credentials with calculating everything to the letter and one-upping Sherlock Holmes. Yan Quing, while not as far-reaching and extravagant as Moriarty, manages to carve out a niche with his more simplistic smarts. After all, he was only one closest enough to kill the Protagonist, and his attempt tipped Moriarty's whole gambit in his favor.

Conclusion?

Mmm, maybe. What do you guys think?

Edited by erazor0707 on May 6th 2019 at 5:08:36 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#9356: May 6th 2019 at 5:11:58 PM

[tup] Yan Qing

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9359: May 6th 2019 at 5:59:57 PM

Yee

Btw, Erazor, do you want the Nasuverse stuff getting it's own page? I've lost track but I feel like it's getting up there fore numbers, given you've got four on your to do atm.

Edited by 43110 on May 6th 2019 at 9:26:29 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#9361: May 6th 2019 at 7:41:51 PM

[up][up] Perhaps in the future, 43. Let's see what the other Nasuverse products — as in the non-Fate/ series stuff — have to offer.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#9362: May 6th 2019 at 7:52:36 PM

I should ask about my candidate before I waste time on an EP for a character that's already been downvoted. The character I was asking questions about branching paths in games for is Mettaton from Undertale. Has he been brought up before? My research has only brought up the game being on this thread once to remove some unapproved entries.

Edited by papyru30 on May 6th 2019 at 8:57:55 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9363: May 6th 2019 at 8:07:29 PM

@ Erazor, Ten four, good buddy.

@ Papyru, Not sure, I know one character couldn't qualify as a CM because of different story branches played them differently (I think) but I haven't played it. @ Scraggle, I think you have: any light to shed for us there, mate?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#9365: May 6th 2019 at 8:16:13 PM

Yes to Yan and I already did my own private look into Undertale. Branching paths are a non-issue for Mettaton; his intelligence and charm stay the same through each of them, and he can confidently be called a bastard in the non-"KILL EVERYBODY" routes. My personal problem is that, right before his boss fight, there's a quick gag where the Human tricks him into turning around by telling him there's a mirror behind him, which I feel hurts his intelligence cred too much. I've considered giving him an EP several times now, but I keep hitting a brick wall at that specific part. It's a shame too - he's my favorite character.

EDIT: I'm suddenly deeply regretting not doing this character sooner, because I've been playing pinball with his chances in my head for months now. If Mettaton goes up, I'm gonna kick my own ass.

EDIT 2: Y'know what? Papyru, can I take the wheel on this one? I don't mind if you take Mettaton but this is something that's been on my brain for too long now.

Edited by DocSharp on May 6th 2019 at 9:03:52 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#9366: May 6th 2019 at 8:26:11 PM

As someone whose favorite character is also Mettaton (What a fabulous character) I'd argue that it's a minor slip-up but considering he managed to go rogue from his own programmer, execute his plot very well, and is a Graceful Loser, I'd say he's still at least worth an EP.

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#9367: May 6th 2019 at 8:29:54 PM

[tup] to Yan Quing.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#9368: May 6th 2019 at 8:34:52 PM

Honestly: if it's just a silly scene where an otherwise brilliant plotter slips up, I'm actually inclined to cut slack for the fact that things which make me laugh tend also to charm me. I'd wanna see an EP first but as long as he doesn't come across as a Smug Snake getting outwitted (which it doesn't seem like, from the sounds of things) I'd probably say yeah.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#9369: May 6th 2019 at 8:51:29 PM

I'm fine with seeing an EP on Mettaton all things considered.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#9370: May 6th 2019 at 9:53:09 PM

Funny story, I almost did an EP for Mettaton back in March, but stopped partway through because of the aforementioned being tricked into turning around and getting his switch turned off (Which, while having hiss switch turned off didn't stop him from functioning, it did cause him to lose his indestructible body).

Felt it was too big a fuck-up on his end, but if anybody would like to contest that, feel free.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 6th 2019 at 12:54:38 PM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#9371: May 6th 2019 at 10:33:35 PM

Sorry Doc I only just saw your request to take over. I'm mostly done with my EP but we can PM each other on this if you want.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#9372: May 6th 2019 at 10:37:17 PM

Eh, don't worry about it. No use in your hard work going to waste.

Edited by DocSharp on May 6th 2019 at 10:38:09 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#9373: May 6th 2019 at 10:37:35 PM

Oh god I feel Guilty for not thinking of Mettaton now XD.

Can't wait for that discussion.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#9374: May 6th 2019 at 10:47:42 PM

It's late where I live and I want to participate in the discussion so I will wait till tomorrow to touch up my EP and post it. Good Night

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#9375: May 6th 2019 at 10:47:56 PM

[tup]Yang

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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