During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Double post to wish this thread a happy first birthday!
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
HBD!!! Interesting that this thread made on my month of Bday but I was born at the end of the month 
The Unknown Unknown
HBD to the cleanup of one of the best damn tropes on the site.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY, BOYS
Thanks lads, went from a festering pile of bad entries to solid entries contributed by y'all numbering at: ... fuck, idk, a lot. Anyways, thanks for all the hard work and here's to many more!
"The Juice is Loose."
HBD! I know I haven't been on this thread long, but my it go on for many years.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Happy Birthday MB Thread! ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
May we find more Bastards in the future!
BTW: I'm going to Graduate college in one more week (May 13) so yeah this is a great month for me!
Edited by G-Editor on May 4th 2019 at 8:03:31 AM
Happy belated birthday thread. To getting many more interesting candidates up this year.
Personally I'm willing to hear Tom Robinson out, he kind of reminds me of my own candidate Evelyn Pope, they both killed a number of people who kind of deserved it in pretty brutal but spectacular ways. And I managed to get her up.
Edited by MGD107 on May 5th 2019 at 3:36:31 AM
Late HB to the thread!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Congrats G-Editor!
Happy One Year Anniversary!
Congrats, G! Now then, birthday batch:
- Charlie Wilson's War: Gust "Gus" Avrokatos is a snarky and incredibly competent CIA agent who joins the covert operation against the USSR in Afghanistan after falling out with his previous bosses. Gus puts Texas Congressman Charlie Wilson in contact with CIA weapons experts and jointly arranges a major weapons deal with Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan to supply the Mujihideen with Soviet military material to bleed the Red Army dry and ultimately cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. Committed to serving American interests above all else, Gus takes massive pride in his record while also being world-wise enough to foresee what negative consequences arming islamic radicals might have in the future, teaching the idealistic Charlie an important lesson as his parting gift.
- James Bond: Of the many brilliant criminals and terrorists faced by the title character, these few manage to be even a cut about in suaveness and intelligence:
- Dr. No: Dr. Julius No is one of SPECTRE's top operatives and a man of charm and charisma who rules Crab Key, Jamaiaca with his two metal fists. Seeking to disrupt a shuttle launch from America, No outplays everyone sent to the area until Bond's arrival, and even for much of the film Bond is entirely within No's power, only surviving thanks to outwitting No's assassins. When encountered by Bond, No reveals how he completely outwitted the Tongs after crawling up from nothing in Hong Kong as the son of a German missionary and a Chinese woman. Joining SPECTRE, No seeks to help overthrow the orders of the eastern and western blocs alike, and remains one of the most dynamic and striking villains Bond ever faces.
- Live and Let Die: Dr. Kananga, dictator of San Monique, uses Voodoo religions to maintain a tight control on the populace. Eliminating a number of MI6 agents investigating him, Kananga plots to monopolize the heroin trade in America. Disguising himself as rough Harlem gangster Mr. Big to fool any onlookers and divert suspicion to a man who doesn't even exist, Kananga processes heroin on his island and intends on sending 'free samples' to double the amount of addicts before he begins charging, utterly dominating the trade. Staying two steps ahead of Bond for most of the film, Kananga proves himself a charming, suave mastermind and more than a match for 007's best.
- The Man with the Golden Gun: Francisco Scaramanga was once a circus boy who loved an elephant. When the elephant was abused to death by its trainer, Scaramanga murdered the man and discovered a love for, and talent at killing. Becoming a master assassin, Scaramanga keeps his skills sharp by having his sidekick Nick Nack hire assassins to kill him so he can always test himself with his life on the line. Scaramanga also outplays the ostensible villain of the film, the industrialist Hai Fat, killing him to steal the powerful solar device to sell to the highest bidder and retire. When he has his hands on Bond, Scaramanga demonstrates his respect and wish to challenge Bond by challenging him to a duel, gleeful to show his own talents against the world's greatest secret agent.
- Goldeneye: Once James Bond's best friend, Alec Trevelyan was the son of Cossacks who killed themselves after the betrayal of the British and Stalin's execution squads. Seeking revenge, Alec faked his death, betrayed the British and formed the Janus Crime syndicate. Alec proceeds to manipulate and organize several schemes to get his hands on the Goldeneye Satellite, even completely outwitting Bond and nearly killing him on several occasions, all while intending on robbing the British bank and then using the Goldeneye to erase the records, also nearly collapsing western civilization. One of Bond's most personal adversaries, Alec Trevelyan conducts himself with pure charisma, able to get under Bond's skin like no other by knowing him better than anyone else.
- The World Is Not Enough: Elektra King has her own father assassinated and his oil pipeline attacked to deflect suspicion and set up her own plans. Having once been abandoned to the terrorist Renard, Elektra seduced him to the point he is utterly loyal to her, using him to sow chaos while she remains behind the scenes. Intending on causing a nuclear meltdown to enrich her own pipeline, while also gaining revenge on those who abandoned her, Elektra easily outwits the heroes throughout the film, constantly a step ahead of all MI 6.
- Skyfall: Once one of M's finest agents named Tiago Rodriguez, betrayed by her to the Chinese and tortured to the point of a bungled suicide that left him hideously disfigured, Raoul Silva escaped, joined SPECTRE under his new name and became a cyber-terrorist who plays the entirety of MI 6 perfectly. Using a series of terrorist attacks to lure out Bond, Silva proceeds to play mind games with him from their meetings, and allows his own capture so his encrypted laptop allows his men access to MI-6's systems. Escaping MI-6's custody, Silva hunts down M with the intention of achieving a mutual suicide with her, to end his pain with hers and secure his revenge against the woman he sees as a mother who betrayed him. One of Bond's most effective and brilliant adversaries, Silva even dies achieving almost everything he sets out to do, with M following him to death moments later.
- Game of Thrones: Olenna Tyrell is the acidic, witty matriarch of House Tyrell, far more formidable than her oafish son Mace. Olenna, upon her arrival in King's Landing, helps to secure her granddaughter Margaery's power base and soon learns what a monster King Joffrey Baratheon truly is. In an alliance with Littlefinger, Olenna poisons Joffrey at his own wedding, letting Tyrion Lannister take the blame while remaining entirely out of suspicion. Even upon her final defeat, Olenna simply downs a vial of painless poison before revealing to Joffrey's father Jaime that she was Joffrey's true killer, robbing him of any satisfaction at all before inviting him to tell Cersei as "I want her to know it was me," dying on her own terms in full satisfaction.
- Star Trek:
- Star Trek: The Next Generation: Season 2's "Elementary Dear Data", introduces a hologram of Professor Moriarty, created to be an opponent capable of defeating Data at Holodeck games. Accessing the computer to learn of his past and the ship, Enterprise, Moriarty kidnaps Dr. Pulski, revealing he is self aware, and taking control of the ship's computer. Sealed away until the crew finds a way to free him after making an agreement with Picard, Moriarty returns years later in Ship in a Bottle when he's accidentally released. Angry at the crew's failure to free him, Moriarty demands to be released along with his beloved, Countess Regina Barthalomew. Taking control of the ship when Picard refuses, Moriarty threatens to crash it unless he and his loved one are set free. Although Picard wrestles back control of the ship, Moriarty traps Data and Barclay in an illusion on the Holodeck, before accessing Picard's access codes to the real ship, willing to die alongside everyone on board unless his dreams are granted. Although eventually trapped in virtual reality with the countess, Picard had to compromise by allowing Moriarty to live in the bliss of exactly what he wanted to save his crew from the brilliant criminal.
- Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: Elim Garak presents himself as merely a plain, simple tailor, but is quickly revealed to be much more then that. A former member of the Cardassian Intelligence outfit, the Obsidian Order, Garak is exiled from Cardassia and forced to live on Deep Space 9. Garak is able to defeat several of his enemies, outwitting arrogant Cardassian military officials like Gul Dukat and Gul Toran. Garak also is able to manipulate the heroes as well, spotting an assassin on the station sent to kill him, Garak blows up his own shop to get Odo investigate the situation and deal with the assassin and gets Worf to defy his orders by playing to his sense of honor. After Cardassia joins the Dominion, Garak is resolved to freeing Cardassia from the Dominion. Garak's master stroke is forcing the Romulan Empire to declare war on the Dominion, by manipulating Sisko into manufacturing evidence of an up coming attack on Romulus and presenting it to a Romulan Senator. When the Senator decides the evidence is fake, Garak blows up his shuttle, so that the Romulan Empire will think the Dominion killed him and declare war on the Dominion. In the final season, Garak works with Colonel Kira and Legate Damar and uses his skills to help a Cardassian resistance movement overthrow Dominion rule on Cardassia.
- Star Trek: Enterprise: The Mirror Universe version of Hoshi Sato from "In a Mirror, Darkly" stands in stark contrast to her reserved Main Universe version as a conniving Social Climber who seduces men in the Terran Military who can advance her career while being no less important to the mission for her linguistic skills in communicating with hostile aliens. Hoshi supports Archer's mission to recover the Defiant from the Tholians and helps him to maintain control over the ship, even exposing a plot by T'Pol and other alien members of the crew in time to stop the uprising dead in its tracks. Seducing Archer's bodyguard Mayweather and tricking Archer into downing a poisoned drink while his guard is down, Hoshi emerges the victor out of the continual backstabbing and uses the threat of the Defiant's advanced weapons systems to declare herself Empress of the Terran Empire.
- The Twilight Zone (2019): A. Traveler, from "A Traveler" is a mysterious, charming man who shows up in a small Alaskan town as a charismatic 'extreme traveler.' Manipulating the townspeople into conflict to deflect suspicion from himself, he plants misinformation about himself and his goals while laying the groundwork for an alien colonization of earth. After having Sheriff Pendleton sent out to check the power grid, he manipulates Sergeant Yuka with a promise of Pendleton's job to send her after him, ending the episode victorious and sharing a slice of pumpkin pie with a cellmate as his forces come to take over earth.
- Marvel Heroes: Doctor Doom is the ruler of Latveria, and the first Big Bad of the story. Hacking into Tony Stark's archives, Doom discovers the existence of the Cosmic Cube, and seeks to harness its reality-warping powers for himself. Doom employs various supervillains to keep the heroes occupied while he continues with his plans behind the scenes, using both sides to gather various powerful artifacts for him. Once he has gathered all the artifacts, Doom promptly destroys them to ensure that they would not be used against him. He also employs Mister Sinister to clone the mutant Bishop, utilising the mutant's energy absorption powers as a conduit to safely harness the Cube's energy. With the Cube's powers, Doom intends to reshape the world in his own image. Returning from his defeat, Doom exposes the Skrull's secret invasion of Earth and forms an Enemy Mine with the heroes to stop them. A cold and taciturn schemer, Doom always stayed one step ahead of the heroes, and came close to attaining the power he had long sought.
- Transformers:
- Beast Wars: Megatron, a rogue Predacon general who took the name of the Decepticon leader, is a brilliant, charismatic and ruthless foe who repeatedly comes up with new schemes to defeat the Maximals under Optimus Primal. Faking the Predacons' destruction to gain an advantage or using spies and psychological warfare, Megatron even uses cover of a truce to betray Optimus and succeeds in temporarily destroying him. Utilizing his soldiers as expendable resources, Megatron routinely comes within inches of victory, even manipulating a former Decepticon into working for him so he can destroy the sleeping Autobots and completely change history. By the sequel, Beast Machines, Megatron turns out to have taken over Cybertron and repeatedly keeps the Maximals on the run.
- Transformers: Animated:
- Megatron is the leader of the Decepticons and the Arch-Enemy of the Autobots. A brilliant tactician who kickstarted the entire Decepticon cause into an organized, deadly army and initiated the Great War, Megatron was reduced to but a head after the betrayal of his lieutenant Starscream, however even this doesn't stop Megatron, as he manipulates Isaac Sumdac and several other humans to reconstruct his body and return to life. Megatron is constantly updating and adapting his plans, going from trying to steal the Allspark to using its shattered fragments to create a Space Bridge with ease, and uses the mole he planted in Cybertron ages ago, Shockwave, to construct Decepticon uprisings so as to distract Cybertron and let Megatron invade. Rarely losing his cool and his plans always being foiled only by an outside source he couldn't have predicted, Megatron makes one final scheme by using rudimentary tech to take control of Omega Supreme, create clones of him, then use them to conquer Cybertron before expanding the Decepticon rule across the cosmos.
- Shockwave is Megatron's "most loyal servant", a manipulative shapeshifter who infiltrates Cybertron as the Autobot Longarm. When Bumblebee learns that there is a Decepticon spy in their midst, Shockwave first tries to murder the bot before framing the innocent Wasp as the spy, successfully protecting his identity to such a point that he murders the current head of Cybertron intelligence to get himself the promotion with no suspicions. Shockwave manipulates the Autobot leadership for years as he orchestrates Decepticons across the galaxy, and always pounces on any potential leaks of his identity, leading Blurr into a lethal trap when he tries to investigate Longarm and cutting off communications with Optimus Prime when his team learn of Shockwave's status as a mole. When realizing he is moments away from being exposed, Shockwave deals a fatal blow to Ultra Magnus, kidnaps Arcee and uses her memories to help Megatron with his plans to clone Omega Supreme, only being beaten after he lures an Autobot team into a trap and nearly murders them all by playing on their compassion.
- Swindle is a fast-talking, smooth arms dealer who plays both sides of the Autobot-Decepticon conflict to bring himself the most profit. Introducing himself by manipulating a group of human villains into building a powerful EMP weapon, Swindle betrays them all and tries to sell the weapon to Megatron, demonstrating its abilities by easily incapacitating the entire Autobot team. Though he is captured thanks to a surprise attack, Swindle bounces right back as he stages a breakout of an Autobot prison ship, taking control and planning to use the Autobot crew as hostages before harvesting their parts for extra cash. Swindle is always ready with a new gadget or weapon to get out of any situation, such as arming the Decepticon prisoners or disabling Jetfire and Jetstorm in a cinch, and he ultimately gets away scot-free, using an Autobot rescue attempt to distract his cohorts, looting the entire prison ship's belongings, and fleeing into space while remarking how much he "loves a shopping spree."
Alright, on a less fun note: Hit, since you haven't responded to any messages I guess we're doing this here. You cannot just edit other people's entries without getting clearance from the thread. Do not do this again, you didn't go to the trouble of effort posting Elektra, you don't get to randomly decide to change her writeup behind closed doors because you feel like it. Not sure if this is mod actionable if you don't quit it but it's a pain in the ass for me to have to be vigilant to you editing things you shouldn't on the drafts page. I'm going to say (for at least the third time now): if you wanna see a change, bring it to the thread and let's talk about it: you don't alone dictate the appearance of writeups.
Also: with that anger out of my system, any last minute add ons today?
Edit: @ Mir, Huh ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
no idea how that snuck past me, anyways, fixed!
Edited by 43110 on May 5th 2019 at 11:24:38 AM
The wifi here sucks
Question, how does this thread handle games with branching stories where in one option a character is nice and another they are much worse?
Also congrats G
Edited by papyru30 on May 5th 2019 at 9:00:05 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
"The Juice is Loose."
Goku Black
First Happy birthday to the thread and congrats G.
Second up.
@43110: The entry for Dr. No has this part "even for much o the film". Shouldn't it be "even for much of the film"
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I just fixed that.
Also, happy birthday to the thread and congrats to G!
- Charlie Wilson's War: Gust "Gus" Avrokatos is a snarky and incredibly competent CIA agent who joins the covert operation against the USSR in Afghanistan after falling out with his previous bosses. Gus puts Texas Congressman Charlie Wilson in contact with CIA weapons experts and jointly arranges a major weapons deal with Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan to supply the Mujihideen with Soviet military material to bleed the Red Army dry and ultimately cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. Committed to serving American interests above all else, Gus takes massive pride in his record while also being world-wise enough to foresee what negative consequences arming islamic radicals might have in the future, teaching the idealistic Charlie an important lesson as his parting gift.
- Star Trek: Enterprise: The Mirror Universe version of Hoshi Sato from "In a Mirror, Darkly" stands in stark contrast to her reserved Main Universe version as a conniving Social Climber who seduces men in the Terran Military who can advance her career while being no less important to the mission for her linguistic skills in communicating with hostile aliens. Hoshi supports Archer's mission to recover the Defiant from the Tholians and helps him to maintain control over the ship, even exposing a plot by T'Pol and other alien members of the crew in time to stop the uprising dead in its tracks. Seducing Archer's bodyguard Mayweather and tricking Archer into downing a poisoned drink while his guard is down, Hoshi emerges the victor out of the continual backstabbing and uses the threat of the Defiant's advanced weapons systems to declare herself Empress of the Terran Empire.
Edited by Morgenthaler on May 5th 2019 at 8:35:22 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Btw, @ Imperial, you can just leave MI 6 as it is, since it's another name for Secret Intelligence Service and it formats the name the way it does in the series.
The more the merrier 
Edited by 43110 on May 5th 2019 at 11:31:51 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Congratulations G-Editor.
I still intend on checking out Robinson at some point, but I have class tomorrow from 6:30pm ton 9:30pm.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 5th 2019 at 11:42:30 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Something that keeps coming back to my mind because I've been asked about it by a few people despite doing everything I can to avoid it: do we think there's anyone worth going on an NA list for this trope like CM has? I still lean no since the biggest offenders I can think of (Why don't Cinder or Lelouch count? Why doesn't Azula's VB disqualify her?) haven't come up in some time. That being said, I'm one voice on a community thread and I'd like to hear others' thoughts here.
Related and something I'm a bit more excited to see: is everyone down for us to have the administrivia header moved to its own page so we don't have a massive Wall of Text you have to scroll through to see the actual posts in the thread and so it's neatly tucked away on its own page?
The Unknown Unknown
No to a Never Again list. We've had relatively little fuss.
Yes to a separate Administrivia page. As long as the sticky is short, provides a link to that, and one to the MB page, we're good.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Aiiiiii, we agree on both, love it!
Btw can you toss me those blurbs you wrote some time back about agency and the like? You had some good posts but I managed to lose them somewhere along the way and forgot to save them on my google docs file. Nvm, found them.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Unless I'm really misremembering, Hans was just listed prior the cleanup being a thing and him being on the list offended some folks but he was never suggested again after his initial removal.
The answer to your question is dependent based on the context. I'll need to know more.
Edited by 43110 on May 5th 2019 at 1:18:37 PM
The wifi here sucks
I'm not as well verse in the goings on in this thread but my limited time looking at the thread has seen Hans Landa be brought up and angrily shot down a few times. That's the kind of thing that gets characters thrown onto the Never Again list on the CM thread. i'm not really sure if there are more characters who get a similar reaction here but I'd say that if there are maybe 5 characters who have been brought up multiple times and get similarly angry reaction that may be enough for a Never Again list. I'm just spitballing here.
Also I reiterate my question about characters becoming worse based on branching paths and how the thread treats that.
It's more likely that I'm misremembering on Landa. I distinctly remember one troper getting very angry when he was brought up and I vaguely remember at least one other time he was shot down. I guess the one time a person got angry over him stuck in my mind and I also don't remember the date of that discussion.
Also I need to do a bit more research before I bring up the branching path's example.
Edited by papyru30 on May 5th 2019 at 11:40:47 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Lizzid people!
NA list...maybe not. But I do admit the whole Light or Lelouch thing I do agree with the reasons as to why they don't count. And I was surprised that Azula remained despite her terrifying breakdown in the series finale. Keep in I didn't read the comic books.
Edited by AustinDR on May 5th 2019 at 10:43:52 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
I was the one who flipped out about landa's unworthiness for this trope.
I admit, I lost my cool, but my paternal grandfather, may he rest in peace escaped the Holocaust, and I find it hard to believe that a member of the SS who calls himself the Jew Hunter can be worthy of this treatment; that, and him being nothing more than a weasel, were what really rubbed me the wrong way regarding that entry's late removal. It was up for far too long.
That said, I'm surprised that post wasn't thumped.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
IIRC the issue we were having with that stuff was that you were the only one who had really read enough of the story to be making judgements on the characters Klavice, so it made it impossible to get a second opinion or judge collectively.