During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
In regards to Professor James Moriarty, why not just focus on the original literature version of him and go from there? Based on his character page, he does display Benevolent Boss and Affably Evil as oppose to say, Faux Affably Evil. And he was, apparently, fleshed out in novels after The Final Problem. Specifically The Valley of Fear, a prequel to The Final Problem.
Would be an interesting EP.
BTW, is the situation that I noted("Character has enough redeeming qualities to not be a CM but rips children from their families and brainwashes them to serve him through forced labor") too sadistic or horrifying for this trope hypothetically
Edited by xie323 on Apr 21st 2019 at 11:42:37 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'd say it depends on some factors. Such as, how does he treat the children once he has them?
Also, it's possible for a character to be both an MB and a CM. Not particularly common, but we have a few examples (Hans Gruber, Beast Wars Megatron, DCAU Darkseid, and some others).
One I've been wanting to do...the series ain't great, but ya know what? Let's give it a whirl.
What's the work?
Underworld is a 2003 film that spawned a franchise of very goth-y films by Len Wiseman, starring Kate Beckinsale as Selene, a vampire and a member of the Death Dealers, an elite unit that hunts down Lycans, or werwolves...Selene is especially effective due to a personal grudge, as Lycans murdered her family before she was rescued by the vampire elder Viktor (played by the scenery devouring Billy Nighy as the best damn thing in these movies)....now, the first movie? Selene notes a man named Michael Corvin being pursued by Lycans and realizes something is...off. The Lycans were supposedly crippled six centuries prior with the death of their great leader Lucian, but...they seem to be massing for something big....so, now...let's talk one of the best characters in the franchise: Lucian, played by the likewise scenery devouring Michael Sheen.
Who is Lucian?
Long ago, Lucian was the first Lycan born capable of assuming a human form, all Lycans being savage killers before that thanks to being turned by their savage progenitor, William, all proceeding from the bloodline of Alexander Corvinus, a warlord who was the first true immortal. His two sons, Markus and William? One was bitten by bat, one by wolf, and transformed into the first vampire and werewolf respectively. Markus, to contain the rampaging William, personally turned a dying warlord named Viktor into a vampire, but Viktor usurped control from him....now, Viktor is savagely racist against Lycans and Lucian was raised as a favored pet in his household, used to control the others. Little things, however, begin to...steadily erode Lucian's ironclad loyalty, not least of which is being beaten...however, Lucian? Falls deeply in love with Sonja, Viktor's daughter and she with him. After things go to fucking hell, Sonja tries to mollify Viktor by revealing that Lucian and she are married in secret....and she's pregnant.
Viktor doesn't really take this well. Sonja is sentenced to death, chained up and left to burn in the son. Lucian is forced to watch, but forces himself to change after without the moon in grief and rage, and escapes. He proceeds to rally the Lycan slaves to a successful rebellion, crippling the vampires and personally defeats Viktor in a duel. Unfortunately, Viktor survives and grows even more powerful....realizing that he can't defeat Viktor hmself, Lucian decides on a plan with the bloodline of Corvinus to make himself a vampire/werewolf hybrid...however, he needs to fake his death. When a group of vampires comes for the Lycans, Lucian seizes his chance and massacres them, except for a vampire named Kraven who survives by hiding. Recognizing Kraven's ambition, Lucian offers him a deal: Lucian carves a tattoo out of his own arm so Kraven can present it as proof he's dead, Kraven rises in esteem and Lucian will eventually destroy the vampires with him while allowing Kraven to rule the rest. Kraven returns a hero and Lucian spends centuries strengthening the Lycans underground as the vampires grow decadent and complacent.
Only Selene's pursuit of things in 2003 interferes...Lucian captures descendant of Corvinus to be experimented on for their blood, so he can find one who matches with how he needs, to hybridize...Lucian attacks the doctor Michael, infecting him as a Lycan, which eventually shows him as a match...Selene eventually manages to expose Kraven as a traitor, but not before Lucian manages to ambush and exterminate the entourage of Amelia, one of the major leaders of the vampirecoven, taking Amelia's blood for his experiments. Selene awakens Viktor ahead of schedule (The elders tend to rotate who's awake a century at a time). Kraven, exposed, flees to Lucian, who prepares to finish with Michael's blood and make himself strong enough to destroy Viktor. Selene arrives with the vampires to perform a final strike, as Lucian reveals the truth of everything to Michael. Finally getting fed up with Kraven's cowardice, Lucian snaps at him that "I guess it never occurred to you that you'd actually need to bleed to pull off this coup." And goes to fix things...Kraven, whose malice utterly overwhelms good sense? Shoots him in the back with a silver nitrate bullet. As he's dying, Lucian manages to save Michael from Kraven and tells Selene to bite Michael, turning him into a hybrid, eventually allowing them to destroy Viktor (who actually murdered Selene's family for food and to conceal his secrets), Lucian mocking Kraven that "you may have killed me, cousin, but my will is done regardless" before dying.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A schemer?
Best in series, pretty easily. Michael Sheen portrays Lucian with incredible gravitas, quality of films notwithstanding because he's an award winning film and stage actor who owns the role solidly. The first moment of dialogue is Lucian angrily cowing the other Lycans, telling them they're acting like rabid dogs...before calmly stating "and that, gentlemen, simply will not do." He's a revolutionary, a leader and this shows well. Besides that? He has moments of very quiet sympathy where he reveals a softer side to Michael, and is ultimately a majorly sympathetic 'villain' (who's really only a villain for a bit because Selene doesn't know the truth).
As for scheming...yeah. He organizes a rebellion, pulls the wool over the vampires' eyes for 600 years, cripples the coven, kills an elder and gets damn close to his goal, even using his last moments to finish his work, even if he never gets to see it. The only reason things really fail is he underestimates how stupid, cowardly and greedy Kraven truly is, but still gives him a final 'fuck you' by the end
Is eh a bastard? Too much?
Well, really, Lucian turns out to be more an antihero than a villain. However, I can't really overlook that while he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist? Lucian does have a bunch of innocent descendants of Corvinus kidnapped and killed for their blood. He doesn't like doing it, but he considers killing Viktor his top priority. It's nasty, but Lucian deeply cares for his people, loved his dead wife and everything he does is to avenge her. He doesn't even really seem to hate most vampires (Viktor is way more racist than he is)...everything is about toppling Viktor.
Conclusion?
I'd give him a solid yea
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lucian
I only liked watched a bit of the first film once before stuff came up. How are they?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Lucian.
Lucian even though he made that weird Vampire-Werewolf thing that makes me and everyone very uncomfortable but he didn't know it'd look that dumb.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
to Lucian
to Lucian.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yea to Lucian
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Yes there.
to Lucian.
Okay I’ve got a candidate that I’ve been thinking about but is unsure on whether or not he can qualify. I’ve PM’d a few about this guy, but I decided that I the best course of action is to EP him here, and see the general consensus for him. He’s from The Hangover trilogy.
What’s the Work?
The Hangover trilogy is a trilogy of movies consisting of a group of men called the Wolfpack having a bachelor party, only to wake up in a really f’d up situation and having no idea what had happened to them. Along their misadventure they meet this fellow, Leslie Chow.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Leslie Chow is a flamboyant Chinese gangster who first appears in the first movie by beating the living shit out of the Wolfpack after having been kidnapped by them. He appears to them again demanding the 80,000 dollars that they stole in exchange for the friend Doug Billions. They manage to give him $80,000 for Doug only for him not to be their Doug (their Doug was white while Chow’s Doug was black) but Chow didn’t care so long as he got his money and leaves the Wolfpack stranded in the desert.
Appearing in the sequel Chow is revealed to have hung out with the Wolfpack in Bangkok and befriend Alan Garner. As Chow was about to tell them about the night before, he passes out from a drug overdose.Believing Chow to be dead, the Wolfpack hides his body in an ice box, only for Chow to spring back to life and beat the crap out of the Wolfpack again.
They tell him about that a guy named Kingsley has their friend Teddy and will only hand him over if he has Chow’s code for his bank account. Chow decides to help them and after retrieving Chow’s monkey who had his code and surviving a badass car chase, he succeeds in giving Kingsley his bank code only for Kingsley to reveal himself to be an Interpol agent who never had Teddy to begin with and arrests Chow.
However Chow manages to escape from a high security prison in Bangkok and plays his biggest role in the final installment. It turns out that in the intervals of I and II Chow manages to steal 21 million dollars from a notorious mob leader named Marshall. When Marshall learns of Chow’s escape from prison and finds the Wolfpack forcing them to find and bring him Chow by holding their friend hostage.
They manage to find Chow at a village in Mexico who tells him about Marshall, and Chow decided to get them the 21 million dollars that he hid in a basement of one of his old houses a breaking-in in the house to get it. However Chow double crosses the Wolfpack by trapping them in the basement and triggers the alarm getting them arrested, where it would be revealed that chow manipulated the Wolfpack into breaking in Marshall’s house and steal another 21 million dollars.
The Wolfpack manages to track down Chow again at Las Vegas who jumps off the top of the Caesar’s Palace hotel on a parachute, escaping from them yet again. However Chow manages to crash into a limo that Stu was driving who manages to catch him for the Wolfpack. As they bring him to Marshall, he orders his men to shoot the limo Chow was in. However it would be revealed that Chow managed to convince Alan to give him a way to escape the Limo, which afterwards Chow shoots and kills Marshall and his men and parts ways with the Wolfpack while keeping the 21 million that he stole.
They would not meet Chow again, until Alan’s wedding where it was revealed that Chow had drugged Alan’s wedding cake while exclaiming “We had a sick night bitches!”
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
Being an international criminal for 15 years Chow is very cunning. He’s intelligent enough to orchestrate many heists, such as stealing 21 million dollars from Marshall twice, while manipulating the Wolfpack into doing his bidding only to double cross them once they outlived their usefulness. It through his wits that Chow manages to get everything he wants at the end while not having to receive any repercussion, with the exception of Alan cutting ties with Chow which is negated when Chow gets invited to Alan’s wedding
As for Charisma, Ken Jeong performs Leslie Chow with absolute charm and humor who steals the show in each appearances. His charisma has always allowed him to remains friend with the Wolfpack, especially Alan, despite putting them through a lot. His charming and hilarious personality is the reason why he’s a major Ensemble Dark Horse and the most popular character in the entire trilogy.
What’s the Competition Like?
Leslie Chow is the most badass, cunning, charming person in the whole damn trilogy with no one getting close to his level of charm and smarts. Was he does get arrest in a sting operation orchestrated by Kingsley, in the end Chow manages to outsmart him by escaping prison. He also always manages to outplayed Marshall first by stealing 42 million dollars from him, then by killing him. Chow ends the trilogy as the most successful character.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay Chow is a notorious gangster who does use drugs (mainly cocaine), stole millions of dollars, manipulates the Wolfpack into doing his own bidding many times, and is willing to get his own hands beating people up and killing people without any hesitation. So yeah he’s a bastard.
However Chow has a humane side to him. He enjoys hanging out with the Wolfpack getting into shenanigans with them, forms a genuine friendship with Alan, and the people that he steals from and kills are mostly people who are bad guys themselves, like Marshall. Overall Chow isn’t too much of a bastard to it takes away from his charming and hilarious badass.
Final Verdict?
He’s tough but I’ll leave it to you guys to decide
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Welcome to the thread DeCarta. you can start by looking at this EP about Chow above you
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 22nd 2019 at 12:15:56 AM
On the topic of non-Thrawn or Palpatine Star Wars characters who might be keepers, the Legends' continuity version of Darth Bane might be worth a look. He's definitely intelligent, manipulative, adaptable, and accomplished, but on the flipside, he's unambiguously a Complete Monster, with some of his successes coming about in pretty horrifying ways. I have the books, but I'd have to reread them before making any kind of proposal. Anybody else who wants to take a stab can go ahead; I'm not looking to reserve him.
I know a few other characters who might be worth proposing, but where I'm kind of new to this thread, I'd want to read a few more effort-posts before diving in and writing one myself.
to Chow.
to Chow.
I never took Chow seriously enough to be this trope.
I'll ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
him if he's who I think he is.
Edit: I think he's actually Laughably Evil and a master of Black Comedy so I say we keep him actually change my vote to a yes.
Yes to Summerisle.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 22nd 2019 at 3:49:47 AM
G... we talked about this: no.
I know you and I talked about Chow, but I was really unsure about Chow. I also talked to Lighty and Scraggle about him, but I didn't get much of an answer so I felt like I needed to EP Chow to get a better opinion on Chow, and from the looks of Chow is getting , one of which is Klavice, who seems to have watched the movies and believes he can count.
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 22nd 2019 at 1:13:52 AM
Yeah, I've mulled over my answer. I'm saying no. The setting's way too mired in line-crossing, offensive nonsense. That really undercuts any sense of magnificence or dignity the characters could have.
Frankly? That's my issue with South Park, too.
Lizzid people!
Going with a "no" there as well.
Well, except Leslie. She doesn't have those objectionable traits that other South Park antagonists have.
Edited by AustinDR on Apr 22nd 2019 at 4:36:31 AM
He leads this totalitarian government and he wants to create the perfect soldiers and workers for said government