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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#8426: Apr 2nd 2019 at 2:35:56 PM

sure to pope.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#8428: Apr 2nd 2019 at 3:47:17 PM

[tup] to Pope.

By the way, I think I might have a candidate in mind. Before I submit him for evaluation, I'd like to ask a question. Can a player character in an After-Action Report-style screenshot LP qualify as an MB?

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#8429: Apr 2nd 2019 at 6:53:37 PM

Yes to Pope.

[up] From what I've seen there's basically two sorts of Let's Plays: the straight kind, where it's just a playthrough with commentary, and the roleplay kind, where the player uses the game world to fabricate their own story (think Boatmurdered and the Yogscast Minecraft Series). If it's the latter, go nuts.

[down] Take your time my friend, there's never a rush.

Edited by DocSharp on Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:37:52 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#8430: Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:27:42 PM

[up] Will do. I'd just like a little time to make an EP I'm confident in.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#8432: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:31:06 PM

So, did anyone call dibs on Rex Dangervest?

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#8433: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:39:50 PM

[tup] to Pope.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#8434: Apr 3rd 2019 at 7:52:50 AM

[tup] Santiago "Pope" Garcia

  • Persona: SEBEC Mikage-cho branch head Takahisa Kandori creates the DEVA system, <- comma intending to use it to become God. When Kandori accidentally ends up manifesting Maki Sonomura's mind into the entire town of Mikage-cho, he manipulates Aki, the manifestation of Maki's rage, into trusting him and using Aki to reach his goal of becoming God. When confronted by the heroes, Kandori allows himself to be beaten so that he might "experience" death, graciously accepting his fate. Getting resurrected to help with the plans of Nyarlathotep in the sequel, Kandori becomes one of the highest ranking members of the New World Order despite his lack of interest in advancement. A mere human who managed to become a god because of his own intelligence, Kandori stands out as a true genius in the Persona franchise and is easily one of its most diabolical characters.

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#8435: Apr 3rd 2019 at 8:16:21 AM

works for me, pal. I'll just ask for it to replace the current one now.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#8436: Apr 3rd 2019 at 12:56:45 PM

Alright here's Pope's write-up:

  • Triple Frontier: Santiago "Pope" Gomez is a private military contractor who formulates a plan to rob drug lord Gabriel Martin Lorea after learning how much money he makes from the drug business. With the help of his informant, Yovanna, and his friends from the Delta Force, Pope was successful in finding and killing Lorea in Colombia and burn down his house after stealing 250 million of Lorea's money found inside the walls. Pope would also give a few million to Yovanna for her help and to a village leader as compensation for killing some of his villagers and discard most of it weighing him and his team down. Guilt-ridden when team member Tom "Redfly" Davis gets killed, he and his team decide to give the remainder of their money to Redfly's family, before Pope was given the coordinates of where they left the rest of the money, allowing Pope the opportunity to retrieve it.

Edited by G-Editor on Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:03:00 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#8437: Apr 3rd 2019 at 2:56:13 PM

Alright I’ve got not one but two potential candidates for this trope from a show that I’ve just finished watching. The show in question Banshee.

What’s the Work?

Banshee is a TV show from Cinemax. The basic premise follow a convict who was released from prison after serving a 15 year sentence and takes the identity “Lucas Hood” and becomes the Sheriff of the fictional town Banshee. The person who gave him Hood’s identity is my first candidate Job.

Who Is He What Has He Done?

Job is a Transgender genius computer hacker and “Lucas Hood’s” accomplices, using his computer skills to help Hood get away with many robberies. When “Hood” goes to Job for Anna’s location after serving his 15 years in prison, Job tells him about Banshee the town Anna is living in and now goes by the name “Carrie”.

When “Hood” arrives in Banshee, he witness the real Lucas Hood get killed at Suger Bates bar where he would then call Job and ask him to forge Hood’s identity, which Job, with his computer skill, manages to succeed making a convict into becoming the new sheriff of Banshee.

Job would eventually travel to Banshee himself and would lead the rescue of Hood when Rabbit abducts him and would travel to New York to find out Rabbit’s location giving Hood and Anna the information needed to track down and kill Rabbit.

Also during his time in Banshee, Hood would organize several robberies in Banshee one of which involves robbing a Marine base. However the colonel there tracks down one of the robbers Anna which prompts Job and Hood to save Anna and kill the crazy colonel. However Job gets captured by the military along the way. Job’s whereabout are unknown until 20 months later where Anna and Hood track down the people who have Job. They manage to save Job, but lost the money along the way.

Wanting vengeance on the person who got him captured and imprisoned for 20 months and stole all his money, Job tracks him down takes everything that was stolen from him, and makes him culpable to all the crimes that Job has committed before mockingly telling him to enjoy his short life before giving an unloaded gun with one bullet in the chamber. Taking all the money that Job has stolen, he leaves Banshee telling the town to “suck my fat tit”.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

As a genius computer hacker he’s definitely intelligent. With his computer skills, Job manages to organize several robberies and escapees, give a convict the sheriff’s identity, and ruin a man’s life and pulls it all off without ease. Plus he’s shown to be a kung-fu master willing to get his own hands dirty when the situation calls for it.

As for charisma Job is fabulous with an attitude to back it up. He always maintains to cool and charming demeanor with committing his crimes and hardly ever looses his cool. While he does lose his composure for a while in season 4 its completely justifiable since he was tortured for 20 month, and even then he quickly recovers it using all of his smarts to achieve his vengeance and leaves Banshee as his old fabulous self.

What’s the Competition Like?

Job is by far one of, if the, smartest characters on the show with hardly anyone come close to his level of charisma and intelligence. Hood can be smart, but he’s also very Hot blood who would have gotten killed many times if it wasn’t for Job. Honestly the only one to be matching Job’s as this is my next candidate.

Is He A Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?

Lets see Job has organized numerous robberies, gives a convict a sheriff’s identity, has killed people himself, and completely ruins a man’s life, so yeah I say he’s a bastard.

However he doesn’t come across as too much of a bastard compared to the others in the show. He never commits any deplorable crimes that others here have committed, is shown to care for his friends, and never gets innocent people involved in his scheme. Plus, that man whose life Job ruined absolutely had it coming since he was a cowardly douche who sold Job out to save his own skin.

Final Verdict

I’ll leave that to you guys

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#8441: Apr 3rd 2019 at 4:03:19 PM

Now then my next Banshee candidate Kai Proctor.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Kai Proctor is a crime kingpin and businessman in Banshee who rules the titular town from the shadows. However, he is also faced with many opposition, including “Lucas Hood”, but manages to find a way to outwit each of them while keeping his position as number one bad guy.

However he’s also willing to help Hood if the situation is in his favor such as helping him fend off against Rabbit’s forces while telling him that he now owes Proctor a favor. That favor would come when he has Hood rescue his niece Rebecca from his rival Alex Longshadow while also having him diminish Longshadow’s forces.

Proctor is also willing to dirty his own hands during his rivalry with Longshadow having blow up of his hotels, killing to Mayor along the way, and having Rebbecca kill Alex all while he himself gets out of prison for killing the real Hood’s son maintaining his control over Banshee.

As makes criminal deals to expand his empire one of them has Proctor kidnap due to his niece making deals behind his back. However Proctor manages to kill his captors and kills their boss while establishing a new alliance with their rivals, proving once more why you shouldn’t mess with Proctor.

By Season 4 he’s has made allies with the Aryan Brotherhood and The Cartel at the same time while also becoming Mayor of Banshee, establishing complete control over the town. However during that time he had also lost his niece seeking revenge against those who killed her. At first it seemed Declan was the one who killed Rebecca, but it turns out it was actually his right hand man, Burton, that did it prompting Proctor to kill Burton.

Also in Season 4 he’s met with opposition when Calvin tries to take control of the Brotherhood and turn them against Proctor. However Proctor goes to DC to get the true leader of the Brotherhood to put an end to the rebellion allow Proctor to control the Brotherhood.

However his alliance with the cartel goes south when Anna and Lotus destroy the shipments of drugs for the cartel. This leads to the Cartel to send hitmen to kill Proctor for failing to carry out. However Proctor decides to confront the cartel with a Tommy submachine and shoots them all up.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

As the criminal kingpin of Banshee, of course he’s got to be intelligent and charismatic to maintain his control and influence in the town. He’s very pragmatic that he’s willing to make deals that would benefit his enterprise, but his willing to get his own hands dirty and get rid of them when they cross him, all while maintaining his calm composer. Hell the only times he looses such composure is when his niece Rebecca gets hurt or fucks her, but always manages to quickly recover. It is because of his intelligence and charisma that he’s become both a crime boss and Mayor of Banshee at the same time.

What’s The Competition Like?

He’s practically the only one who can match Proctor’s intelligence and charisma is Job, but manages to distinguish himself from Job being a criminal kingpin and mayor and not a computer hacker. Other than Job, I can’t think of anyone else who can match Proctor in terms of this.

Is He A Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?

Okay Proctor is a crime lord who distributes drugs and murders many people, and his allies with the Aryan Brotherhood and Drug Cartels, so yeah he’s a bastard.

That said Proctor has redeeming qualities. He genuinely loves his amish family and takes Rebecca in when they kick her out while teaching her how to run his criminal business. While he may be ruthless, he’s never commits any deplorable act that to take away from his magnificence and doesn’t any of the Brotherhood’s ideology only using them purely for business.

If you need to ask no Proctor is not racist as he’s more than happy to deal with Indians, blacks, hispanics, and who ever he can benefit from. He’s a guy who strongly believes in Equal-Opportunity Evil.

Final Verdict

I’ll leave that to you guys

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#8445: Apr 3rd 2019 at 4:30:58 PM

Ah, Red Sun Luthor.

I've actually considered him before.

But thing is: I'm not sure he's enough of a bastard. Which is weird to say considering one scene has him kill all his employees after Supes' robot beats him at chess, but other than that he's a straight up hero with few anti-heroic moments. He's at the very least a Guile Hero, but MB? I dunno. Probably. But he's way less evil than other Lexes.

EDIT: Wait, sorry, forgot he almost caused a Colony Drop just so Supes would save the day. He's a keep, sorry for my doubt.

And I apologise for being slow in my work. I've been busy and distracted by both life and media, so please bear with me.

Edited by PolarPhantom on Apr 3rd 2019 at 12:32:35 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#8447: Apr 3rd 2019 at 10:40:24 PM

[tup]banshee duo

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#8448: Apr 4th 2019 at 2:19:35 AM

How does this look for Fawful's writeup?

  • Fawful is The Dragon to Cackletta in the first Mario and Luigi game. During the Bowser's Minions segment, he brainwashes the Koopalings and other minions to work for Cackletta. When she was defeated as were the Shroobs, Fawful ascended to the role of Big Bad. First, he sells a sinister mushroom to the Toads of the Mushroom Kingdom, a mushroom causing the Blorbs. When the leaders of the kingdom get together to ponder the dilemma, Fawful gives the defeated Bowser a Vacuum shroom causing him to inhale everything in sight. Upon taking over Bowser's castle, Fawful brainwashes Bowser's loyal minions to take over the castle, create a theater, and fatten Bowser up; upon him reaching the castle. This is to extract Princess Peach from Bowser's body, which he uses to awaken the Dark Star giving him total control of the Mushroom Kingdom. As a last ditch effort, when Bowser finally makes it to Peach's Castle and after Bowser inhales the Dark Star, Fawful, after being defeated merges with the Dark Star and creates Dark Bowser to fight Bowser and Dark Fawful to fight the Mario Bros. In spite of conquering the Mushroom Kingdom, Fawful is a Benevolent Boss to his minions and is Affably Evil to the baby versions of the Mario Brothers, showing he has a soft spot.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#8450: Apr 4th 2019 at 9:48:03 AM

Anyway as far as Us goes, no one counts.

Edited by AustinDR on Apr 4th 2019 at 10:13:12 AM


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