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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#81926: Sep 23rd 2022 at 8:09:27 AM

Basically, it's the same situation with Professor Arc and Jaune Ashari and kinda like a Spider-Man: No Way Home situation - it's the same character (and specifically the same version of the character), but Arc Royale is basically a side story that takes place at some point during his original story.

Basically, it's the same character who goes through the same story, but Arc Royale is basically a side story to it. With that in mind, I'll probably just do an EP for him and then combine the write-ups like I did for the other two.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#81927: Sep 23rd 2022 at 8:51:56 AM

[tup] to Grizz; i was looking to propose him myself!

The Protomen enhanced my life.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#81928: Sep 23rd 2022 at 8:58:13 AM

With thanks to Lighty I'd like to welcome you all back to Fright Night. For real!

Who is Billy Cole? What has he done?

An interesting take on The Renfield who isn't just a simpering toady, Billy is Jerry Dandridge's best friend and caretaker who poses as his roommate. First spotted by Charley Brewster moving Jerry's coffin into their new home, he starts keeping tabs on Charley and reporting to Jerry after he finds Charley sniffing about their yard. When Charley tries bringing a police detective to the home while Jerry sleeps during the day, it's Billy who throws off the cop, convincing him Charley is nuts and leading to the police writing off everything else Charley tries to tell them for the rest of the movie.

Also fiercely protective of Jerry, when Charley comes to the house with his friends and actor/alleged vampire hunter Peter Vincent, he loomingly intimidates Charley when he tries to press a cross to Jerry. Later that night when Jerry realizes Vincent has also caught onto him, he chases Charley and his girlfriend Amy to a club where he hypnotically seduces the latter, Billy acting as getaway driver on the scene after Jerry gets into a fight.

When Charley and Vincent come to attack Jerry in his home while he holds Amy captive, they prepare to kill Billy with a simple gun after he protects Jerry from Charley armed with his cross. As Jerry makes preparations to turn Amy—implied to be the reincarnation of his dead lover—Billy attacks the two to seemingly get shot to death. Allowing Jerry to flee to Amy, Billy reveals his true nature as a ghoul and nearly kills Vincent after bullets prove ineffective, only stopped by Charley's staking of him.

Actions and personality?

Not just a Dragon, Billy acts as Jerry's info web while he sleeps, keeps Charley at bay during the day and pulls a neat trick in playing as a regular human. He's fully loyal to Jerry with whom he shares a Villainous Friendship and really wants to see his buddy happy with his beloved once more.

Mitigating factors?

He's obviously a smaller character than Jerry but he's well played, a joy to watch and quite the trickster himself.

Verdict?

Keeper.

Expect more from Lighty and I from the franchise come Halloween.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#81929: Sep 23rd 2022 at 9:00:04 AM

Happy yes to Billy, one of the only examples of The Renfield to possibly count. It's really something how he's not just Jerry's servant, but the two are genuine and complete buds who just love one another's company.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#81930: Sep 23rd 2022 at 9:08:52 AM

Thanks again for recommending this one, I adore their dynamic!

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#81931: Sep 23rd 2022 at 9:15:46 AM

[tup] Grizz.

[tup] Billy the Ghoul.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#81934: Sep 23rd 2022 at 9:28:03 AM

Just found this on his character page:

  • Smug Snake: When Charley tries to prove Jerry is a vampire to a detective, Billy convinces the detective Charley is a liar while smugly mocking Charlie every time the detective turns his back on him.

This is about as silly as Jerry's Dirty Coward entry for pausing at possibly having to drink holy water that would kill him. Billy has the detective thinking Charley's a loon while trolling the kid who's pointedly trying to out and murder his best friend.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#81935: Sep 23rd 2022 at 9:36:05 AM

That's an eager Yes to Billy, great work!

While on the subject of videos, here's one of my boi Kilobot lmao, what do y'all think?

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#81936: Sep 23rd 2022 at 9:36:59 AM

[tup] for Ash, Gogul and Saturday, Chuck, Alotta, Amsterdam, Deena, the Grandmaster, Jarrod, Jesse, Grizz, the Luthor vid, and Billy.

[tdown] for Isabella.

Cut Quetzel and Dark-Eye.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#81938: Sep 23rd 2022 at 9:51:09 AM

Yes to Grizz, the Luthor vid, and Billy.

Also my Jungle Fury write ups.

  • Power Rangers Jungle Fury:
    • Jarrod, the Black Lion Warrior, starts off as a mere bully before accidentally releasing Dai Shi and becoming his vessel. Under Dai Shi's influence, Jarrod makes repeated attempts to destroy Ocean Bluff to collect enough fear to start a second Beast War, at one point sending the deadly Five Fingers of Poison to take out the Rangers, before giving Camille tips on how to beat the treacherous Naja. Jarrod revives the three overlords to train him and is constantly improving himself to the point that even masters like R.J. can't beat him one on one. When Grizzaka overthrows him, Jarrod plots from the shadows to master Zocato Power and, to do so, outmaneuvers everyone to get to the Rhino Nexus, before taking back his throne. When Scorch's plan using the Spirit Rangers fails, Jarrod has Whiger steal Casey's Spirit. Eventually breaking free from Dai Shi, Jarrod helps the Rangers destroy both Snapper and Dai Shi himself. Constantly growing along with the heroes, Jarrod ultimately proves that he has the heart to go along with his Lion Spirit.
    • Camille, the Green Chameleon Warrior, is Dai Shi's beautiful and snarky right hand woman. Responsible for sending monsters to destroy Ocean Bluff, Camille regularly comes up with plans that nearly defeat the Rangers, such as, helping two monsters become a Battle Couple, sending a monster to trap the Rangers in a deadly game show, and cloning one monster into an army, while having the original hide. In one of her finest moments, Camille singlehandedly defeats the treacherous Naja, even tricking the Rangers into helping her, and pretending to turn to lure Naja into letting his guard down. When Grizzaka overthrows Dai Shi, Camille steals the Control Dagger and helps Dai Shi reach the Rhino Nexus. Later falling for Jarrod when he saves her life, Camille joins the heroes in the final fight and enlists at the Pai Zhua academy along with Jarrod. A skilled warrior, master of disguise, and not without her softer moments, Camille repeatedly shows that she should never be underestimated by enemies or allies alike.
    • Carnisoar, the Overlord of the Skies, contrasts with his fellow overlords by constantly keeping a cool head. Revived to help Jarrod/Dai Shi reach the pinnacle of evil, Carnisoar does so by changing Jarrod's memories of his past good deeds and then putting him through Training from Hell, even sending a pair of monsters to destroy Ocean Bluff, by opening a vortex to suck it into. When Camille revives Jellica, Carnisoar gracefully steps aside to allow her to take over Dai Shi's training and later helps capture R.J. Joining Grizzaka's coup, Carnisoar later uses his illusions to trick the Rangers into attacking each other and defeats to megazords with ease. Even when defeated, Carnisoar defiantly tells the Rangers that the war is far from over.
    • Scorch is the leader of the Phantom Beasts who opposed Dai Shi in the original Beast War. After being freed from his Crystal Eye, Scorch plays along with Jellica's plan in order to kill her in front of Dai Shi to prove his loyalty. Tasked with destroying the Rangers, Scorch has a monster act as a distraction while he and his fellow generals kidnap the three still living masters to create the Spirit Rangers which nearly destroy the Rangers repeatedly. When this fails, Scorch has a pair of monsters kidnap the entire city to harvest their fear. Angered at Camille being made a general while Whiger was punished, Scorch undermines her plan of a clone monster army by secretly leading the Rangers to the original one. Later attempting to kill Camille in order to keep Dai Shi strong, Scorch leads the final charge to collect fear and aid Dai Shi regain his true form.
    • Whiger is a Phantom Beast general with the Spirit of the White Tiger and is the one who captures Master Finn to help make the Spirit Rangers. Tasked with taking Casey's Tiger Spirit, Whiger ambushes Casey when he is alone and successfully steals his spirit. Later challenging Casey to finish their fight but faced with the test of the team, Whiger bests all four of them and later attacks the city, though avoiding attacking children. Banished and stripped of his Rinzen by Dai Shi, Whiger tries to regain his honor by challenging Casey a final time, only to be saved by him instead. Repaying the favor by helping Casey find the kidnapped citizens, Whiger even gives Casey his Spirit back and helps him battle Camille, proudly proclaiming Casey his friend and fellow Tiger.

I have no idea what potholes I would suggest. Maybe mir could help out there.

Edited by Bullman on Sep 23rd 2022 at 12:46:11 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#81939: Sep 23rd 2022 at 10:03:46 AM

[tup]Billy.

[up]Jarrod (Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy), Camille (The Baroness), Carnisaur (Evil Genius), Scorch (The Dragon), Whiger (Genius Bruiser)

You can also use the animal trope each corresponds too.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#81940: Sep 23rd 2022 at 10:24:53 AM

[up] Thanks. I will look more into the animal tropes to add some as well.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#81942: Sep 23rd 2022 at 10:42:44 AM

[tup] Kilobot's video

It's Spooky Month!
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#81943: Sep 23rd 2022 at 10:50:20 AM

[tup] for Billy Cole and the Kilobot video.

Also like I said in the CM forum, yes, it is September 23rd. Yes, I am aware it has been two weeks since it has been two weeks since BROK the InvestiGator came out. Lots of shit has happened since then. Namely me spending a week trying to find time to play the game and going through various choices to get the canon ending, and me spending this current week coming down with a sinus infection I'm still suffering from. But I finally got the canon ending to the game, so I can finally talk about shiz and things!

And just like the CM forum, no one counts. :D

The only candidate (again) is Wes. Again. It's revealed he's a robot who had the memories of the real Wes planted inside of him after the real Wes died (it's a fat-ass story I'm not going to try and get into). But first of all, he wants to commit what is more or less genocide by killing all the Slumers. Second of all, after Brok discovers his intentions, he turns into one of "those" villains.

"Yes, I am an evil, maniacal, hammy villain who must now perform exposition so everyone knows what I'm doing! And now I will attempt to kill the protagonists in my giant robot and later have a Villainous Breakdown when all my plans are foiled!"

...

..Look I'm not criticizing Wes' character, but the developer/writer clearly knew what he was doing when he wrote some of these scenes. XD

So yeah...this is what the two-week wait amounted to.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#81944: Sep 23rd 2022 at 11:16:20 AM

[tup] to the Luthor and Kilobot videos.

Everyone look at my sandbox
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#81945: Sep 23rd 2022 at 11:33:54 AM

  • Fright Night (1985):
    • Jerry Dandridge is an ancient vampire who moves into suburbia and begins to prey upon victims where he is noticed by the young hero Charley Brewster. Charming his way into an invitation from Charley's mother, Jerry initially offers to spare Charley if Charley forgets about him after his friend manages to fool the police and make Charley look insane. Easily fooling Charley's friends, Jerry realizes the suspicions of actor Peter Vincent and seduces Charley's friend to become a vampire, kidnapping Charley's girlfriend and turning her so as to lure Vincent and Charley into a final confrontation, conducting himself with incredible charm and charisma as he welcomes them to "Fright Night. For real."
    • Billy Cole is the vampire Jerry Danridge's immortal servant and best friend. When Charley brings a detective to Jerry's house while the vampire sleeps, Billy tricks the cop into thinking Charley is crazy while humorously mocking the young hero. When Charley and Vincent launch their attack on Jerry's house, Billy seemingly allows them to kill him to let Jerry escape before revealing himself as a powerful ghoul, nearly killing Vincent.

Edit: Ever so slightly changed Jerry's writeup to indicate it's Billy who fools the cop.

Edited by 43110 on Sep 23rd 2022 at 2:37:23 PM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#81947: Sep 23rd 2022 at 12:25:11 PM

~despoa kindly bring your suggested edits before rifling through the Breaking Bad page and changing things to be as you'd write them. I'm going to handle editing tomorrow so please leave spelling and grammar stuff, it'll be fixed soon enough.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#81948: Sep 23rd 2022 at 12:29:49 PM

Yeah, I'm frankly getting really annoyed by people repeatedly taking it upon themselves to edit entries that were worked hard on by myself and others. If someone wants to make some changes, bring it here and we will vote on if it's warranted...right off the bat, I can safely say that the Lalo and Mike additions are pointless and add more words to what are already lengthy entries.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#81949: Sep 23rd 2022 at 12:31:46 PM

@43 Yeah, that backfired hard on me yesterday, so I would know.

[up]Yeah, any edits I made to entries that weren't mine were meant to improve structure and not have any effect on the overall content, but again, not my place though. I fully submit to that.

Based on both the EP and Jerry's entry, [tup] to Billy. I gotta figure out if there's something specific—besides one thing I just thought of—that I want to cover for Halloween too.

Was gonna keep it a surprise, but I have a question though: if Muppets Haunted Mansion has a keeper, would they go on the Disney page since it's a Disney+ special?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 23rd 2022 at 12:33:24 PM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#81950: Sep 23rd 2022 at 12:32:36 PM

Alright, at this point, the page has now seen an edit war and at least two different users making unauthorized edits. I've talked with 43 in PM and the page is gonna get an early lock because this is frankly ridiculous.


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