During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Chuck, Alotta, Amsterdam and Deena
Isabella
Yes to Deena. One thing you'll find is that while none of our 3 MB candidates are necessarily on the right side of the law, compared to the CMs from the series they're practically angels (and I still have to write up the newest CM from the series).
I've also set up the tree at the bottom of the Drafts.
Edited by ACW on Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:58:54 AM
Quiet so Imma just double post. I've been meaning to do this for a while but I'm wondering if we wouldn't mind a little more elaboration on our man Pikey. Lighty rewrote him some time ago but I wanted to add a bit more meat to his actions since the guy defines classic lit rival.
From:
- Gormenghast: Steerpike begins life as a lowly boy in the kitchens who is able to scheme and connive his way into becoming one of the most powerful figures in all Gormenghast. Arranging for the downfall of favored retainer Flay, Steerpike seduces Earl Sepulchrave Groan's daughter Fuchsia and burns Sepulchrave's library to drive the Earl mad. Murdering Master of Ritual Barquentine to claim his position, Steerpike also entraps Sepulchrave's sisters in his schemes until they depend entirely on him and he may leave them to starve. Even when exposed, Steerpike is able to use his intellect and resourcefulness to hide out within Gormenghast, waging a one-man war against the Groans and all their forces.
To:
- Gormenghast: Steerpike begins life as a lowly boy in the kitchens who is able to scheme and connive his way into becoming one of the most powerful figures in all of Gormenghast. Arranging for the downfall of the favored retainer Flay, Steerpike seduces Earl Sepulchrave Groan's daughter Fuchsia and burns Sepulchrave's library to drive the Earl mad, painting himself as the hero who saved everyone from the fire he engineered. Murdering Master of Ritual Barquentine to claim his position, Steerpike also manipulates and later entraps Sepulchrave's sisters in his schemes until they depend entirely on him and he may leave them to starve. Even when exposed, Steerpike is able to use his intellect and resourcefulness to hide out within Gormenghast, waging a one-man war against the Groans and all their forces. Only stopped by a freak flood, Steerpike defiantly dies snarling his hatred of hero Titus Groan as he passes.
Thoughts?
Uh maybe later.
Do you guys mind waiting on The Imperfects ep by like a fee more days after the 24th. I have a solid example that's shaping up but I'm taking it slow with the series.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Sounds good, Mir.
Aaaaand the final candidate from DIE. Pretty sure this is the first time we've ever had a living Tabletop Game for MB!
Who is the Grandmaster of Die?
Well, it's more of a what than a "who." See, the world of Die was created by Solomon in the 1990s, but that sent a ripple throughout time— but we'll get there. The party came into Die and escaped without Solomon, as the story goes. See, Sol was trapped by the Grandmaster, which turns out to be the Anthropomorphic Personification of the world itself. Sol couldn't escape, but the Grandmaster made Sol an offer— become the new Grandmaster, and lure his friends back in. As the party of Paragons returns to the game, they realize that Die's got a master plan in the works. What exactly it is, they can't discern.
The first thing that truly reveals the depths of Die's work is when the party, minis Chuck and Isabelle, are imprisoned by a unique jailer... Charlotte Brontë. See, Charlotte's siblings have to create the world of Gondal for Die's inspiration to exist, and that world's inspiration? Die. Similarly, this hand spreads throughout history, from past to future. The moment Die came into existence, being a Non-Linear Character, it reached back and forth through time from the future to past. The Brontës? Oh, they created Gondal and a part of Die's world thanks to Die having Sol leave convenient inspiration for them. H.G. Wells' Little Wars, which meant to stop the production of wargames but instead ensured their creation? Die's work. Lovecraft's night terrors, inspiring the horror stories he would write and later the tabletop horror mainstay Call of Cthulhu, another of Die's own inspirations? Die's work. Oh, and then there's the father of modern fantasy, who needs his own inspiration...
...So Die arranged events to cause World War I. Yeah, it's playing for keeps. And its ultimate goal? Die wants to ensure the inevitable future, in which it merges with our plane of reality, making both one and the same. And this isn't a future— Die has been arranging everything, altering its plans for centuries, essentially locking in the future it knows has to happen. Die doesn't know all the details, but it figures out what it has to do. When the Paragons finally reach it, Die can only speak the truth to Sol. Chuck initiates his final gamble, and Die explains its origins, its plan, and asks the Paragons a question.
"What am I for?"
After some deliberating among the Paragons, they realize that Die isn't evil at all— it's a completely amoral entity trying to ensure its own existence. Ash tells the Grandmaster the answer to its question. It existed for a group of troubled teens to manifest their struggles into a fantasy world, to help them escape their troubles, and to give them both their lowest terrors and highest fantasies... and they're done with it, wanting to go back to the real world. The satisfied Die's response before it sends them home, leaving Solomon's powers intact and likely still preparing to merge the worlds?
"Thank you for playing."
Is Die magnificent?
Look, I think I've made it clear— Die is a brilliant chessmaster who managed to go throughout history untouched and unnoticed to ensure its own creation, just subtly tilting things enough. It's a stoic, amoral and utterly brilliant being, its handprints all throughout the world and its every action playing a role in its creation in the 1990s. And even then, it's already masterminding its plan to merge the two worlds— which, while left vague in terms of consequences, is probably not a good thing and, as the ending seems to indicate, is quite likely to still be in the works.
Despite this, Die is a fallible and fundamentally rather complicated being. It's not constantly utilizing its power, often using the subtlest touches to ensure its goals. Not all of its creations are perfect— as Zamorna himself ruefully notes to Ash, he was created to appease a 17-year-old's adolescent fantasies thanks to the party's subconscious influences, and the end result was a character that ended up as a manipulative abuser rather than the charming prince that was initially intended. Die's not perfect— it doesn't quite understand human empathy and morality at all, it's not really cheating via seeing the future since it has to do everything as subtly as possible, and by the end genuinely seems to wonder what its purpose for existence is. But when Ash tells it its purpose and tells it they're tired of the escape it offers, it's a complete Graceful Loser and lets them go no strings attached.
Is it bad?
It caused World War I. Really, Die turns out to be an amoral being that doesn't actually have any malicious intention, but amoral is the key word there. Die doesn't even bother trying to have any morality. It tormented a young Lovecraft with nightmares, twisted multiple creators' intentions to achieve its ends, and overall is extremely ruthless. And, again, caused a world war. It's even pulled (Well, "pulled"— they range from fantastical recreations of the creators like Wells to clearly normal Tolkien) many of its authors in to its world, which is misery for Tolkien and Wells, but for the young Lovecraft forced to grow up in it, is so hellish an existence he sews his own eyes shut.
Despite this... Die isn't evil. Die just wants to live. Everything it did, it saw as necessary. It's a completely neutral being that wants nothing more than to ensure its own existence and figure out the purpose of said existence. It just exists to entertain its players and give them the escapism they crave. And in the end, it lets them go. It's still planning to merge the worlds, presumably, but it does have something of a sense of dignity and honor with the fact it lets them go when they express clearly that every living Paragon is done playing and they've helped it solve its existential crisis.
Conclusion?
Thank you for voting.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:08:07 AM
Okay...
This keeps coming up. I don't wanna hearing "But I was just..." Nothing. Every regular on this thread knows better. Do not do it again. Ever. I don't care how excited you are. Do not edit a thing if it's not your writeup without posting here first and getting permission.
Yes to the Die examples.
Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:59:07 AM
Yes to the Die and In Death candidates.
I'm back. Now my final Jungle Fury keeper. Though this one has a big if over him counting.
Who is Jarrod?
Starting out as a bully with the Spirit of the Lion, Jarrod was banished for the Pai Zhua school when he attempted to attack Casey, but in an act of anger later released and was possed by Dai Shi. Attempting to collect feat to start a new Beast War and having Camille send monsters to do so, Jarrod at one point has Camille send the Five Fingers after them, before instructing Camille in how to defeat Naja. Later seeking to become stronger, Jarrod revives Carnisoar to teach him to be a better and has his memory changed. When Camille awkens Jellica, Jarrod eventually earns her respect by fighting her head on. When he is bested by RJ, Jarrod comes up with a plan to capture him for a rematch, by beating the Rangers and using them as blackmail to get hom to surrender.
After reviving Grizzaka leads to him being dethroned, Jarrod manages to learn some of his Zocato power by seeing one time and starts plotting away to master it. In order to do this he finds the Rhino Nexus, leaving Camille behind to keep an eye on things, and later has Camille still the control dagger while he is imprisoned. Using the Nexus to master Zocato, Jarrod easily bests Grizzaka and even hijacks his plan to free the Phantom Beasts. When Scorchs plan with the Spirit Rangers fails, Jarrod, realizing that Whiger has the Spirit of the Tiger, has him steal Casey's spirit to weaken them.
Being made the Phantom Beast King, Jarrod starts to break free of Dai Shi'd dark influence after falling for Camille. Finally breaking free after Casey shows him compassion, Jarrod joins the Rangers, as the Black Lino Warrior, in defeating Snapper. However, due to feeling extreme guilt over his actions, Jarrod decides to hide himself and Camille and refuses to join in the final battle. However, after being inspired by Camille, Jarrod shows up to help the Rangers defeat Dai Shi and prove that he really does have the heart of the Lion. Destracting Dai Shi by jumping inside of him and attacking him from within, he allows for the main three Rangers to destroy Dai Shi. Surviving, Jarrod restarts his training from the beginning, because"its never to late to start over".
Is he magnificent? Bastard? Too much?
I think it was mir who said that Eric from Time Force had "bad boy energy". Well Jarrod to has that in spades, especially when being curropted by Dai Shi. He just uzzes this short swagger that is hard for me to describe. He is also quite clever. I had to summerize a lot but when ever he is involved in a plan, the Rangers barely win each time. He regularly bests them in one on one, and is constantly improving himself in order to be able to take on and defeat even masters like RJ and Master Finn. When Grizzaka over throws him, he bides his time and comes up with a way to take his throne back and humilate Grizzaka. Even when he loses he manages to turn it to his advantage, like with the Nexus, he wanted the full power (the zord), but even when he lost it he managed to get enough power to master Zocato.
Bastard is again pretty easy. He tries to a Beast War that would destroy all humans and to do so repeatedly sends monsters to destroy the city. Even before Dai Shi he wasn't exactly a great guy . He regularly attacked under clasemam and oh yeah attacked his master which released Dai Shi. However, Jarrod also has an excuse being bullied as a child and having no friends. Not a great one but its a kids show. He also grows through the series, as ot goes along he gets a lot less impulsive and far gentler. To start with his dynamic with Camille at first he really didn't care about her, letting her fight Naja on her own, though giving her tips on how to defeat him, and allowing Jellica to abuse her. However, he eventually falls for her and starts to actually reward her. Also he proves to be a good person deep down who eventually does the right thing and ends on a great note in helping to defeat Dai Shi.
Other issues?
Yes remember how I said that this relies on w big if. Well the show is kinda ambiguous on rather Jarrod is in control with Dai Shi as a curropting force or Dai Shi controlling Jarrod's body. Ultimately I feel that there is more then enough hints towards the former to count. His rivalry with Casey is clearly Jarrod. It's Jarrod's memories that Carnisoar rewrites. He recognizes Dominic a guy only Jarrod had known years ago. His development with Camille is Jarrod falling for her. He directly responds to Jarrod and refers to Dai Shi as a sperate being a couple of times.
Conclusion?
I am leaning yeah but I leave that up to you.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 22nd 2022 at 11:24:07 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadYes to Die and Jarrod I'm leaning yeah on as well.
future, I'm tired of you having to touch every entry from works you're familiar with like your mark has to be left on them. I handle formatting and grammar as curator, I don't edit people's stuff to revamp and beat them into being done as I would personally write them. This is the second time we're having an issue with you on the same franchise page... what's going on, man?
I'll
Jarrod personally. I agree their is ambiguity but I think there's enough indication that he was in control for most of the run till the end (it's only than that Dai Shi starts to overtly take over).
mir: Thanks again for suggesting this season to me to register for candidates. It was a fun one.
43: Thanks this was quite fun for me. I have never done this many from a show before, so it's wasn't easy but quite fun.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 22nd 2022 at 11:48:30 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
