During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Sorry 43. Yes to *ahem* "Sandy
."
Not gonna comment on the elephant.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 21st 2022 at 5:40:15 AM
Have a lotta something:
- International Man of Mystery: Alotta Fagina poses as the seductive secretary of Number Two. When Austin sneaks into her penthouse to uncover Dr. Evil's plans, she seduces him, uncovering his true identity to let Evil catch him and even after Austin disables Evil's drill, captures Vanessa, nearly forcing him to allow for Evil's escape.
G a villain being Evil Is Cool does not make them a Magnificent Bastard. You need to accept that some villains will not count. And I don't think you are doing this out of malice, but that doesn't change the fact that you said something offensive in the process. Understand that it is fine if a character is not an MB. There is nothing wrong with a character not being one.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midAnyway let's start.
What's the work?
In Death is the most famous work of famed Romance author Nora Roberts.
Anyway from the trope description :" it's featuring police detective Eve Dallas in 2058 New York City. The series has been described as Law & Order IN THE FUTURE! She meets, and later marries, the multi-billionaire Roarke. The series concerns Eve and Roarke, and their efforts to catch various killers, psychos, and the occasional case of science gone bad."
This one comes from Origin in Death.
I was meaning to do this like in 2019 when I did Dr. Jonah on CM (check Monster.In Death for his entry) but man am I incapable of keeping a schedule. Lol.
Who is Deena Flavia?
One of a group of clones created by mad scientists Dr Icove Sr and the monstrous Jonah Wilson. Deena was raised as a spy for assassin missions. At 20 though she rebelled, stealing one million she became a covert hitwoman for hire and thief and honed her skills even further. Hoping to eventually get revenge and save her friends and sisters at the academy who are raised as prostuites, assassins or spies.
She contacted one of her "sisters" Avril who was husband to Icove's son. And she started a plan to bring the operation down for good.
Anyway scooping out Icove's office. Deena enters using an alias to create an opportunity to enter the building. She stopped the place out to know when his admin will be gone, makes sure to leave no fingerprints and had planted the weapon in the restroom beforehand presumably by her sister. She than entree and strikes Icove with a precision surgical wound to the heart.
She than convinced Icove Jr.'s wife (Avril) to make him very comfortable and catch him off-guard to kill him too. And convinced the head of the academy to let her in by pretending to be a future client. When she didn't recognise her and was off-guard, stabbed her with a scalepwl and took her files. Anyways she leads to the Icove and Wilson's lab to destroy the root of this and save her sister Diana's baby which is at the facility. The plan was for the gestation chamber as it was linked and hence you couldn't save the babies their, hnec to stop this Deena was going to destroy it but save the rest of the nursery...but she couldn't do it. She cleared it out well she headed to the cloning hub by using a sulphur stink bomb to confuse everyone.. Their the book gets weird as Wilson comes back to life and threatens the kid She used her laser scalpel to hit him and save the kid and gives it to Diana to run. But Wilson isn't finished and revives again and grabs another baby from here. He than throws it as a human shield which Eve catches. In the crossfire, Deena is caught and dies but uses her deathbed confession to clear Avril by taking the blame for everything. Going out like a champ..
'Magnificent?
One of the smartest bad guys in the series. Skilled, poised, able to come up with truly brilliant kills. And dies with complete dignity unlike 90 percent of the losers and creeps that populate this series.
'Bastard?
Like tbf her kills in the present are asshole victim types but she makes it clear that she's been a thief and hit woman for hire for a long time before this. It was to make money for this scheme but it happened. But uh Affably Evil, cares about her sisters, WIE, etc.
'Conclusion?
Definitely keep. I have one more and ACW has another.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 21st 2022 at 5:41:59 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I still have bad guys from from To Kill a Kingdom, Modern Faerie Tales and Shadow of the Fox to add here. All of which works I covered on cm already. Like man. Time flies.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 21st 2022 at 5:49:14 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yes to Flavia.
Is there a policy on posthumous characters? I am thinking of rewatching The Goonies and wonder if the fiendishly clever pirate One-Eyed Willy could count when he is long dead and doesn’t even get a flashback (although an All There in the Manual backstory that he started out as a court jester indicates some charm).
to Gogol, Saturday, Chuck, Alotta, Vallon and Flavia.
to Isabella.
to Deena
So are we all cool and can we move past this incident? I'll try to avoid asking obvious questions and careful with what I say in general as the last thing I want to do is offend anybody
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 21st 2022 at 11:29:15 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffAfter far too long...
- Old Joe is the seemingly doddering man in charge of Rocker Salvage, a junkyard used by criminals to destroy evidence. When Walt and Jesse attempt to destroy the RV and are confronted by Hank Schrader, Joe uses his knowledge of the Constitution, probable cause, and the need for a warrant to force Hank to back down, allowing him to successfully destroy the RV. Later on, Joe also uses his engineering knowledge to help build a giant magnet for Walt, Jesse, and Mike, successfully building a magnet powerful enough to destroy an evidence room. In his final appearance in the franchise, Joe tries to help Jesse escape from the authorities, only to realize that his El Camino's Lo-Jack has been activated; realizing that the police are coming, Joe gives Jesse the advice he needs to escape the authorities before fleeing back to his junkyard, becoming one of Heisenberg's allies to end the series just as well as when he started.
- Ira is a master thief whose services come highly recommended from Dr. Caldera and prove invaluable to other criminals. Hired by Jimmy to steal figurines from a copy shop, Ira easily breaks into the building, and even when the shop owner comes back and leaves him stuck, manages to stay still for several hours, sneak a phone call out to Jimmy for assistance, and then sneak back out unseen. Meeting with Jimmy to give him his honest share of the cut, Ira then reveals that he changes phones after every job, meaning that only the Vet has his contact information. Several years later, Ira runs Vamanos Pest, a pest extermination company that doubles as a thieving front; several weeks after cleaning houses, Ira either robs them or gives the alarm codes and keys to other criminals to rob, with the police never learning of his operation. When Walt, Jesse, and Mike use his business as a mobile meth lab, Ira keeps the legitimate half of the business running, with the DEA never discovering Heisenberg's cooking methods.
And with that, we close on the franchise!
Yes to Deena
Calling FAITH: The Unholy Trinity like I did on CM like a year ago, I doubt anyone will count but with the release date finally being announced I feel like I might as well reserve it on both threads.

G clearly didn't mean it that way from the way I read it. I had my own dumb moment or moments with bad candidates here too admittedly that I’m hindsight I realize I should've been smarter about. One particular case was even in PMs and not on the thread and I felt foolish for even considering it after that.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 21st 2022 at 2:28:59 AM