During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
It's Him
to Old Joe.
The comparison to the Chancellor was more meant as a point of comparison. Since the story also isn't as long as the film it's based on there but since The Chancellor is the villain protagonist there instead of a minor flashback character he does a lot more. I can't speak of Hunt Down the Freeman but sometimes the length of a story won't always dictate how much a character does it all depends on focus.
Old Joe.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Aug 31st 2022 at 2:48:04 AM
I originally gave a spirited
to Joe before and…I MAINTAIN.
Damn. I was hoping to get my two in before STAR did either of his. I don't blame him though, I dropped the ball.
I realized a couple days ago that my sandbox edits for Joe (one under Actor and three under Director) were on there for months despite us ultimately scrapping his original approval due to the Villains Wiki insurgence. Haha. By the time that info got to me though, I decided there was no point to removing them. Three directors by the way—same number as Ed—is VERY TAME for a keeper in this series. Haha.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 31st 2022 at 2:49:52 AM
I'm not going to go look through the Chancellor's story to dispute that but tbh if anything this is making me lean towards thinking his entry could likely be trimmed back with efficient wording. Anyways, I've said my piece about entry lengths from smaller works based on pre-existing ones and I don't think there's much more to add: we simply disagree on the issue.
Yes to the Oldie but Goldie.
Time for another Fixer from Cyberpunk 2077. This next one will contrast Regina in that she's easily the most evil of the Fixers that can employ V.
Who is Wakako Okada?
Wakako is the best Fixer in the wealthy neighborhoods of Westbrook and closely vying with Rogue as the best and most veteran in Night City. She is an elderly Japanese woman who holds sway over Japantown and carries a high ranking position in the Tyger Claws gang that she inherited from a series of five husbands she miraculously outlived. Running a pachinko parlor from her office on the prostitute ridden Jig-Jig Street, Wakako first meets V during their first six months as a solo merc in Night City and the first mission after the prologue is rescuing a wealthy client from organ and cyberware harvesting Scavengers.
She's further plays a role in a couple of main quests. First, V and Takemura will come to her seeking information on the parade Hanako will be attending in order to force a meeting with her. Wakako will be charmed by Takemura's politeness and give the pair full details on the parade's route and the Arasaka soldier placement, in truth she doesn't believe they can accomplish their mission and just want them to go in and kill as many Arasaka employees as possible to avenge her granddaughter who was killed by Arasaka. Next, V and one of their allies Judy Alverez are trying to track down their mutual friend Evelynn Parker, who it turns out was sold to Scavengers by an illegal ripperdoc. Wakako was the Fixer for the ripperdoc and served as the middleman and set up the transaction. V will come to Wakako to track down the buyers, and she will give them a lead on where to find the traffickers and wipe them out. Wakako may be willing to do business with them, but doesn't mean she likes the kind of work they do.
Some of Wakako's gigs are below. She will learn a few Tyger Claws had their casino robbed by a dealer but killed her before they could find where they hid the money, so Wakako discovered she hid the money on a chip hidden in the casino and sends V to steal it. One of her fences came into the possession of a device that can crack corporate cyberware and Wakako sends V to track the fence down and take the lockbreaker by any mean necessary. Another notable gig involves delivering a car with a hostage in the trunk for the client as payment for insulting the Tyger Claws, and it turns out Wakako had the deal set up to win either way. Either V will use discretion and do the delivery and get them and Wakako paid by the client, or they can free the hostage who reveals they will pay Wakako extra for sending someone to rescue them. A netrunner who worked with Wakako in the past turned on a team of Tyger Claws and left them to die and stole some high end tech in the process, so Wakako decides be a good Tyger Claw and send V in to rescue the netrunner in exchange for giving the tech to her as payment. I think you see a pattern here in that Wakako is not screwing over other Tyger Claws to if she can get more power and wealth in the process. This culminates in her final mission wherein she hires V to infiltrate a shinto shrine that a Tyger Claw boss was using to hold secret meetings about ousting her. Predictably, she learned about it and plans to use info from the wire tap to set him up and deal with him.
Is she magnificent?
Wakako is a Consummate Professional that is frankly downright terrifying in how calm she always seem while also having a threatening presence. She no-nonsense and remains the most emotionally distant of all the Fixers to V and treats them only as an employee. All in all, she's a more straight forward criminal mastermind compared to the other Fixers and doesn't pretend to do what she does for any altruistic reasons. She uses her wisdom and experience to maintain power and control over much of the Tyger Claws while not being afraid to manipulate them or her outside mercs into conflict that could see either or both dead.
Is she a bitch?
She's a career criminal that is more that willing to set up terrible deeds even if she never directly gets her hands dirty.
Final verdict?
Overall, she's the most outright villainous of the Fixers, but still within what I call fair for this trope.
. As well the quote from her below sums up her attitude quite well.
"And do you know what a fixer does? Allow me to explain. Not only do I finalize transactions. I can accomplish the goddamn impossible. Makin' sure the buyer, supplier, and ever-neglected intermediary not only keep their heads in their games but keep their heads. Period. So don't you ever ask me who, with whom, where, when, why or how."
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Aug 31st 2022 at 4:38:41 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
to Okada.
Ight, just finished Destroy All Humans! 2: Reprobed, as well as played/researched the other games. PM me if anyone wants a rundown on the series.
no worries, it ain't Crypto, dude's a perv lmao.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Aug 31st 2022 at 5:29:50 AM
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I was tempted to put the above quote as the page quote for the MB page, but I found it worked far better as a page quote for The Fixer and put it there.
Crypto gets a bit too rapey for my tastes, but Pox might count since he bounces back from his death pretty well.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Aug 31st 2022 at 5:27:29 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.The other EP as well as the writeups are in process, but for now, I'm happily ready to begin!
What is the work?
Breaking Bad aired for five seasons from 2008-2013 on AMC and is often considered one of the best damn drama series ever put on TV (and that praise is totally earned). It focuses on meek, submissive and complacent—but genius—high school chemistry teacher Walter White getting inoperable lung cancer and deciding his last hurray—as well as a way to have a lot of money to leave behind to his family—is to join the drug trade as a cook and manufacturer of Crystal Meth alongside naive former student Jesse Pinkman and stakes continue to be raised—due to increasing danger from enemies in the industry, Walt's DEA agent brother-in-law Hank Schrader investigating the unknown to Hank "Heisenberg" and Walt's own deeply buried ego and pride often pushing things beyond complicated as well. Along the way, many criminal masterminds are encountered by Walt and this one in particular has come to mind.
Who is he and what has he done?
Lawson is a gun manufacturer who makes dealings regularly on the blackmarket. Beginning in chronological order with his appearances on the 2015 prequel/sequel Better Call Saul (which is just as exceptional as well), Lawson first is introduced showing Mike Ehrmantraut multiple rifles at a motel room to see what he's interested in buying. Mike decides not to purchase anything and offers to pay Lawson for his time, but Lawson insists on not billing him for it.
Later on though, Mike does purchase a sniper rifle from Lawson—which he intends to at first use on "Tio" Hector Salamanca—and Lawson gives Mike training and lessons as to how to use it. This all comes in handy when Mike does single-handedly save Jimmy from an ambush in the desert and soon after that, Mike nearly uses those same skills to be ready to do what he has to during Nacho Varga's last stand so that Nacho doesn't suffer too nasty a fate. Years later during the events of the original series, Jimmy/Saul has Lawson as a criminal contact and refers Walt to him so Walt is able to purchase a thirty-eight snub from Lawson—advising him on having time to mull the purchase over and go with what he feels is right—and that particular gun Walt intends to kill Gus Fring with, though he ends up using it for other stuff instead like killing mooks and preparing to defend himself against a possible retaliation from Jesse too.
More time passes and Walt while on the run returns to town from hiding out and meets with Lawson in the bathroom of a Denny's to get a car with an M60 gun. After being assured by Walt that it'll not cross the border or leave town while taking the large cash payment in the process, Lawson tells Walt he printed out an instruction manual to help him to use it too (which Walt that night successfully rigging the gun to help him significantly in taking out Jack Welker and his whole gang with the only real setback being that Walt himself expires from blood loss due to a stray bullet). Lawson's final moment in the Denny's scene is tacitly wishing Walt good luck as he leaves.
Is he magnificent?
Lawson is a man who totally knows his business and adheres to helping his customers as much as he can. He's always discreet and is able to provide what is needed and help with what it's needed for all while easily flying under the radar in the process. Lawson goes above and beyond and his even willing to let the first session he has with Mike go totally uncharged when he doesn't buy anything is another way of showing how benevolent he is.
Bastard? Too much?
Lawson insisting that he appreciates the rights to stand your ground and bare arms while also secretly selling guns to criminals is something that does mean a lot of damage will get done by means of his involvement and yet, he's not malicious or uncaring about it. His passion lies in guns and he sells them based on both that and that he enjoys putting that deep passion to use in such a way that makes money (think Walt in the end truly loving his vast scientific knowledge that lead to creating a chemically perfect product—that just so happened to be an illegal substance—but Lawson clearly is more humble and low key than that though). Lawson gives his consultations as well and ultimately is not just a glorified salesman wantonly not caring about the madness he could cause, but a reputable, careful expert who's just as influential on a deeply personal level and not just a superficial one.
Verdict?
He's a pleasant
from me!
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 31st 2022 at 6:17:50 AM
Technically yes, but the problem is the Tabletop Games page would be very small without the Warhammer examples.
Lawson
Tbh I might just make the lengthy YMMV pages "See here" and link to Tabletop Games until we get those buffed out.
