During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Wild Child
You know, it's funny; I literally re-watched Catwoman: Hunted last night to EP her myself after months of procrastination (which due to crappy Wi-Fi took four hours to finish).
Anyways, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to her.
More patience than me Clown, I'm liable to put my fist through my monitor at that point ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh my gosh I am so sorry, I had no idea. Would you like to do the write up for her instead. I mean I have one going through the English thread right now but I would happily forgo it to make it up to you for accidentally stealing this from you.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 27th 2022 at 3:26:37 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So, I ran this by Lighty, and I think I have an MB from Mortal Kombat: Deception. Onaga, the Dragon King, the ruler of Outworld before he was overthrown by his former adviser
Let's start with Reptile's ending from Deadly Alliance:
Who Is Onaga?
I use this video:
So the game opens immediately following Deadly Alliance. Shang Tsung and Quan Chi are victorious, and even though Raiden tries to stop them, he fails. The two sorcerers almost immediately turn on each other, with Quan Chi victorious. However, Onaga, the "one true ruler of Outworld", returns, to claim his army. The sorcerers and Raiden together try to stop Onaga, but even the 3 combined barely injure him.
Back to the beginning: Shujinko, the protagonist of Deception's Konquest mode, is a Earthrealm teenager? who hopes to enter the Mortal Kombat, and dreams of adventure. One day, he meets a…sapient light named Damashi (apparently Japanese for "Deception") who claims to be an emissary of the Elder Gods. He claims the Gods need someone to save the realms. When Shujinko asks what happens if he refuses, Damashi claims he'll just choose someone else. He gives Shujinko the ability to copy any moves from fighters he encounters.
Damashi later mentions the 6 Kamidogu, important items which will help save the realms.
After 5 years of Shujinko training with Bo' Rai Cho, the latter has him search for his missing Warrior's Medallion. Damashi tells Shujinko to keep it, which he does without hesitation, as it will give him credibility among master warriors.
Eventually, Shujinko finds an artifact, which turns out to be the Earthrealm Kamidogu. When Damashi tells him to keep it, Shujinko mentions that he promised the Lin Kuei he'd return it, but Damashi reminds him that he serves the Elder Gods, not the Lin Kuei.
Next is the Netherrealm, which Shujinko could only apparently enter because he wasn't completely pure and good, but Damashi tells him not to dwell on it (good lord as magnificent as Onaga is, it helps to have someone like Shujinko as an Unwitting Pawn ).
Later on, Shujinko is supposed to use the Outworld Kamidogu as a bargaining chip to convince the Seidan (Orderrealm) Guardsmen to help save a city from Shao Kahn, but Damashi convinces Shujinko to have the Seidans occupy the city, even though he had not planned to. Shujinko eventually does this.
Later, Nightwold senses corruption in Shujinko's soul, and cleanse him…but Damashi tells Shujinko that he will have to regain the impurities to enter realms, and won't be able to compete on the Mortal Kombat tournament. Shujinko reluctantly agrees.
Later still, Shujinko is arrested by the Seidan guard (long story) and awaits trial in prison for 20 years (I think); now elderly, he is eventually broken out by a mercenary hired by Damashi (no, I don't know why he waited so long).
Eventually, a fed-up Shujinko demands Damashi reveal the quest, which convinces Shujinko to keep going. Finally, once Shujinko's found all the Kamidogu (around 1:31:00 in the video), he thinks they should be transported to the Elder Gods, but this doesn't happen. Onaga, now with a body, reveals that Damashi was merely an avatar. There is one final piece that Shujinko was not aware of: An amulet (which Onaga takes from Quan Chi, as seen in the opening cutscene).
Shujinko canonically defeats Onaga, but Onaga doesn't die. Here's his Armageddon bio, which was on the now defunt website:
But as Shujinko landed his final blow, an outside force simultaneously ensnared my soul and expelled me from my host body. I found myself bound to a rune in the Netherrealm. I languished there until I was found by Shinnok, a fallen Elder God. Like me he was trapped in that accursed place, denied domination of the realms by lesser beings. Shinnok offered me a chance at revenge: I would regain my rightful place as ruler of Outworld in return for my unquestioned servitude. I bow to no one, but I considered his offer.
Shinnok was nearing his ascension from the Netherrealm, but he feared another defeat — either by his enemies or his allies. He would emerge unchallenged if they were all eliminated. To achieve this, he needed an Edenian half-god named Daegon to defeat a fire elemental. The godlike energy Daegon would receive from that victory would bring about this slaughter. However, many other warriors also sought that power. Should Daegon fail, should some other warrior defeat Blaze, Shinnok's plans would go unfulfilled.
Shinnok was most concerned with Shao Kahn, my most hated enemy. He proposed that I feign reluctance, but join Quan Chi's new alliance in order to stay close to the traitor. I would then follow him to the final battleground and prevent him from reaching Blaze. When Daegon finally won the prize, the kombatants would all be slain and I would be given Outworld to rule once more. As an added incentive, Shujinko, languishing in Shao Kahn's dungeon, would be mine to do with as I pleased.
I did not trust this fallen Elder God. I suspected treachery. If all went as he had planned, I would most likely be among the dead. But I accepted his offer in order to free myself from that accursed Netherrealm. Satisfied, Shinnok conjured a portal and spoke through it. He then raised his hands and clenched his fists. With a demonic shout, my soul was freed from the binding symbol and I was released from the Netherrealm. I awoke in my original body, covered in dragon's blood. Before me stood Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, and my hated enemy, Shao Kahn.
I will pose as Shinnok's pawn and join Quan Chi's alliance. Shao Kahn will never reach Blaze. But I would be a fool to allow Daegon victory. Once I have slain the fire elemental and have taken the prize for myself, I will have Shinnok's head. Onaga serves NO ONE!
Now, what happens to Onaga canonically in Armageddon, I don't know.
Magnificent?
Yes. Granted, Shujinko's kinda a naive idiot , but "Damashi" plays him like a fiddle, manipulating him throughout much of his life. He started out by playing on his desire for adventure and excitement, and from there it was easy.
He's also extremely patient, willing to wait years and decades.
Now, admittedly, his granting Shujinko Power Copying backfired, but I won't hold this against him too much.
Apparently Onaga himself may be a pawn of the one being, but I'm not sure this was ever confirmed.
My only qualm is: Revenge Before Reason? In the following opening cutscene to Armageddon, he flies away with Shao Kahn and…disappears? Around 3:10.
Bastard? Too much?
I mean, he's obviously a villain, and maybe even omnicidal. But compared to the franchises's other main villains (as well as Frost), he's practically an angel. And in the following Armageddon scene, he calls them "an alliance of traitors":
Moreover, the Armageddon bio reveals that he plans to betray Shinnok and co. when the time's right.
Conclusion?
I'd like to have another MB. Will you be like Shujinko and do as I ask?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Wild Child
No need to apologize Bull; write-up is all yours.
Why so serious?
Woagh
Ight, so nobody counts in Kao. The Big Bad is The Eternal Champion, who turns out to be the secret identity to Minkey, the shopkeeper you keep running into throughout the game. He's decently clever I guess (his whole ploy is to lure the protagonist to his lair so that he can steal his magical gloves and has already incapacitated the legendary heroes when the game starts) and he doesn't do anything too bad, buuuuuut the final boss and afterwards paints him as a petty asshat who couldn't accept that he wasn't ready to be a warrior and spends the final cutscene complaining about how he lost. A possible redemption is teased a bit, but we never see if he goes through with it.
As for others, his sentient hat literally only shows up for the final battle to do nothing and the bosses are the mind controlled heroes who don't do anything clever.
Oh, and to Onaga and Hunted!Catwoman.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jul 27th 2022 at 1:35:33 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
I'll say sure to Onaga and let's keep the conversation on Sandaaru going please.
Professor Gigachad
I'm sorry but I can't personally support Onaga counting. Yes he is smart, but the problem I have is that in terms of intelligence and manipulation he is very outclassed by Shang Tsung, Quan Chi and Shinnok who yes is far more despicable and way too evil to be MB's but their feets of manipulation and intelligence are far larger than anything Onaga does. And they are operating with less or similar levels of power to him. Also when it comes to the Armageddon thing, MK 9 shows us that Onaga going after Shao Kahn when he could have flown to the top led to him being defeated and Shao Kahn winning.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
@43110
1. Sandaaru wasn't the one who invoked "It". That was Tau Zant. Sandaaru may have stood back and watched and not cared, but Tau Zant and the Evill Will are the ones actually causing the destruction that's happening. Even if we acknowledge that Sandaaru does have some responsibility for getting Tau Zant the artifacts he needed, blowing up buildings and scattering debree everywhere is something just about every Monster of the Week in Sentai has done when they're grown giant. Sandaaru technically aiding in it isn't particularly over the line considering what most Sentai villains have done. 2. Sandaaru is certainly laughing, but it's not shown that he's laughing at the destruction that's going on. Considering he and the Hurricanegers were over in a forest, he was probably just having a chuckle at the Hurricanegers being unable to stop him. And he says his last words in a more somber, accepting tone, not a gloating one. 3. It wasn't like the Gouraigers just waltzed over to Sandaaru and stab him, they had to do something to catch him offguard blow themselves up with him in order to bring him down. It's not portrayed as a moment of "Sandaaru's arrogance was his downfall" but as "the Gouraigers sacrifice themselves to take down an unbeatable enemy as a way of atoning". 4. I don't believe it's stated anywhere in the MB criteria that an MB's pawns have to be especially smart, just that the MB has to themselves be brilliant and smarter than most of the other characters in the show. Even so, I feel it undersells the Jakanja to portray them as a bunch of gullible idiots. They may be goofy but they do come dangerously close to defeating the Hurricanegers and ending the world multiple times throughout the show.
Just imagine something here.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Hmm... might have to stand back on Onaga if there's concern about him being outplayed but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree there Reddish. Sandaaru still remarks "I knew it" when Tau reveals what the Evil Will will do and still kills him to be the godlike being who gets to kill the universe and remake it... he's totally behind the destruction and making sure he profits from it and he makes it clear he knew what he was getting into and facilitating. I don't see why Sandaaru would pause to tell us specifically what he's laughing at... he's destroying the world and trying to recreate the galaxy in his image, I'm inclined to see that as him basking in victory and again, it is a moment where he allows himself to be distracted because again, he seems high on victory and it's what provides the moment to beat him. I really, really, really don't see this one and I do sincerely feel this bears scrutiny beyond what he's gotten thusfar. I mean no offence, I simply disagree on his listing. Likewise the Jakanja might be decent fighters at times but they practically cling to Sandaaru's every word the moment he pops up and it takes the ones who do catch on to him a long, long time to do so.
Professor Gigachad
Like I honestly did consider the Mortal Kombat franchise quite carefully, but the problem the series has is that no matter what version we are talking about we have same problem where the franchises best manipulators are also its vilest villains.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Ah, so it kinda runs into the same problem people who go against Palpatine do?
Professor Gigachad
Yeah it does, that is why we have so few Mortal Kombat MB's.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I think Onaga counts, but the Big 4 are probably magnificent enough, but WAY too much a bastard.
AFAIK Nitara and Legacy!Shang Tsung are the only ones.
Edited by ACW on Jul 27th 2022 at 4:53:22 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
Yes I do agree that the Big 4 are to vile but Onaga also needs to stand out in terms of manipulation and intelligence and in terms of that on the scale he is operating he really falls short.
Think of it like CM, being the one without redeeming qualities won't also mean you stand out in terms of heinousness.
We also have Defenders of the Realm!Quan Chi.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 27th 2022 at 1:55:19 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
But, like...what else could Onaga DO exactly?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Woagh
Does Onaga ever actually get outplayed by any of the four? I'm not reading anything regarding him getting manipulated, and even then he still pulls an elaborate scheme that nearly results in him winning.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Blazing Larvesta
Alright, looks like Paprika got a decent amount of 's. Here's the write-up I have in mind.
Paprika is the eldest of the Gatekeeper Trio who deals in challenges and difficult tests. Alongside his brothers, he interrupts Tibby's journey to return home to Heaven World on four occasions, running gates based on the Endless Games for the player to clear each time. Outside of the main campaign, he also manages the Challenge Train and Perfect Campaigns, with his titular group of the former consisting of some of the most difficult tasks in the game. Despite enjoying seeing the player struggle with his objectives, Paprika gladly accepts defeat should the player succeed, rewarding them with Flow Balls to purchase Rhythm Games at the Café.
Professor Gigachad
Yeah he does, he gets outplayed by Shao Kahn, who manages to overthrow Onaga and take over his throne, he also gets outplayed again by Shao Kahn who is able to beat Onaga in combat and gain Blaze's power, Shinnok also was manipulating events around Onaga and both Quan Chi and Shang Tsung were planning to betray him.
Also Onaga has power levels similar to gods in the franchise he could do way more with what he has.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 27th 2022 at 1:58:14 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Not that I can tell. I could be missing something, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't. He agrees to work with them, but plans to betray them. I just wish we knew what his canon fate was.
They all plan to betray each other. And him getting overthrown by Shao Kahn was in the past. I mean, he has godlike power, but what exactly COULD he do that he doesn't? It's not like CM.
Edited by ACW on Jul 27th 2022 at 4:59:39 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
Again his canon fate is him getting killed by Shao Kahn who claims the power of blaze and leads to Raiden hitting the Reset Button.
MB operates with a very similar standard with competition all MB's must be of roughly the same intelligence for their resource tier and Onaga's tier is higher than Shang Tsung and Quan Chi.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
With Harry/New Goblin and Venom/Eddie, they each get too petty and emotionally wrecked (even with the former's Heel–Face Turn). Green Goblin of course is psychopathic mass murderer-incarnate and yeah, while he's a distinct personality from Norman, we never get genuine clarification on where one ends and the other begins. Anyway, here's the actual EP:
What is the work?
Spider-Man 3 was released in 2007 and is the third and final—by default—entry in the Sam Raimi trilogy which also includes 2002's Spider-Man and 2004's Spider-Man 2. Often the most polarizing of the three films due to both the inconsistency in tone and overstuffed story (though to me, it still works), it involves Peter Parker's double life as both himself and Spider-Man significantly improving, but being unable to empathize and understand the personal troubles of his girlfriend Mary Jane Watson as well as having to take on three different supervillains in the process too. Highlighted the issues with two of them above (along with the other major non-keeper), but the third—who we'd cast doubts on in the past—actually had far more to offer than originally realized.
Who is he and what has he done?
Sandman, real name Flint Marko, desperately needs money because his young daughter Penny's dying and needs an operation and thus, decides to steal it given he can't get an actual job due to former criminal activities (according to a prequel I read about on the Wiki). As his partner Dennis Carradine robs the wrestling manager—and gets away thanks to Peter moving aside to spite the manager for ripping him off—Marko is trying to calmly and benevolently take the car of Peter's uncle Ben who tries to talk him out of it and the surprise of seeing Carradine running behind him results in Marko accidentally shooting Ben fatally—with a remorseful and guilty Marko fleeing the scene after staying with Ben for a bit and Carradine—who abandoned Marko—getting blamed and accidentally killed for it instead. According to the prequel as deceived through the Wiki, he ends up caught and imprisoned when he attempts to rob a jewelry store without realizing another robbery was committed there and now it's filled with cops.
Escaping from prison eventually and going to see Penny to assure her he'll find a means to save her—while also putting the letters he sent her that her mother Emma sent back to him under her pillow—Marko then runs as the cops chase him and ends up falling into a testing facility where he seemingly disintegrates as the machine is on, but instead his DNA is mutated and his being is now entirely made of sand particles. Marko—now Sandman—concentrates on the locket with Penny's picture and fully reforms himself through sheer force of will. When cops see and chase him, he runs and hides in a sand truck while taking full advantage of both his new abilities and the extra sand to unleash Hell upon the cops on a sneak attack.
Confronted by Spider-Man after he uses his powers to overwhelm and take on an armored truck that he then tries to rob, Sandman forms different weapons with his hands in order to beat Spider-Man back, though is eventually forced to depart without the money in the chaos. It's not long after this that Peter both learns about his connection to Uncle Ben—thinking Marko heartlessly killed him—and then gets the black suit thanks to the alien symbiote (who will eventually be separated from Peter, encounter Peter's rival and disgraced and shady Daily Bugle photographer Eddie Brock and form this universe's "much beloved" version of Venom). An enraged Spider-Man takes on Sandman in a tunnel after he's successfully broken into and tried to rob a vault—where Sandman seems to deduce Spider-Man's identity (though if not here, he does later I think even without Venom telling him)—and Sandman ends up presumably killed when he's washed away into the sewer by a large water pipe Spider-Man opens on him.
About 20 minutes later into the movie, Sandman is revealed to have reformed and survived, attacks Venom/Eddie in the street thinking he's/they're Spider-Man and decides to team up with him/they so that Venom can get his/their revenge and Sandman can stop Spider-Man from impeding him forever too. They capture MJ and each attack cops using their abilities to keep them out of the way—with Sandman also turning himself into a giant with as much sand as he can get his hands on—and opening it up to Spider-Man coming to save her and getting beaten down and nearly killed by both of them in the process until a reformed New Goblin/Harry Osborn comes to save and team up with Spider-Man against them. After New Goblin/Harry is morally wounded by Venom and Venom/Eddie ends up totally blown to bits, Sandman confronts Peter, tells him what happened with Ben while expressing nothing but immense regret and the desire to do what he has to for Penny and departs on good terms from Peter who forgives him.
Returning in 2021's No Way Home, the spell Doctor Stephen Strange accidentally casts that brings all supervillains from other universes who know Spider-Man's true identity to the MCU and resurrects them—apparently Sandman is dying due to not being able to sustain a livable condition due to his mutation—brings Sandman there and he saves MCU Peter from Electro/Max Dillion thinking he's the Peter form his universe. Wanting to be cured but also still wanting to keep his abilities, Sandman eventually joined forces with Green Goblin/Norman Osborn, The Lizard/Dr. Curt Connors and Electro in taking on MCU Spider-Man along with both the Raimi Spider-Man and the Marc Webb Amazing Spider-Man. Sandman ends up cured by Raimi Peter (his actual Peter) and agrees to stay hidden until the battle is over and Strange's next spell that erases everyone's memories of Peter sends everyone back to their correct universes.
Is he magnificent?
Sandman—while thanks to the new ability—does improve in his efficiency as a criminal, it's not the powers alone that helps him, its his ability to adapt with them. Hiding in the sand truck to catch the cops off guard is a work of genius, using the sand abilities to travel as well as find different ways of reshaping both his own sand and the sand he utilizes around him to take on any enemy proves highly effective as a result. While Sandman never succeeds in getting the money for Penny's operation, the fact that he keeps relentlessly trying and will continue to keep going until he has saved her is totally proof of how it gives him an immense amount of credit and stamina even on his way out.
Bastard? Too much?
The one accidental murder aside, Sandman definitely is still endangering lives with his powers at almost every turn even if not outright seeking to kill anyone and while it keeps him from being irredeemable, he still is a major power player and threat when he seeks to be—and wanting to kill Spider-Man would be a guarantee to his future succeeds as well. Sandman also is a robber clearly and that point can't be avoided or disputed even with his highly noble goal as to where the money is going. His remorse and regret over unintentionally killing Uncle Ben also allows him to finally open up to Peter when confronted and he earns understanding and forgiveness—things most people had never given him in the past.
Verdict?
I personally am voting . Also, what do you know? He's the guy who unexpectedly made Spider-Man as well! Haha.
Preemptive writeup—we probably don't need the No Way Home stuff:
- Spider-Man 3: Sandman is a small time criminal named Flint Marko who desperately turns to a life of crime in order to pay for his dying daughter Penny to have an operation that will save her. Having accidentally killed Peter's Uncle Ben and eventually caught, he escapes from prison to see his daughter and then accidentally gets mutated into having the ability to manipulate and control the sand he's now made out of along with other sand too. He uses this to fool and tricks cops pursuing him at one point as well as take on Spider-Man as he makes attempts at robbing both an armored truck and a vault. Deducing who Spider-Man is while also wanting to kill him to get him out of his way, Sandman gets the drop on Venom/Eddie Brock thinking he's Spider-Man and then teams up with him to nearly take down Spider-Man successfully while both use their powers to hold back cops and Sandman turns into a giant too. Eventually, Sandman reveals what actually happened to Ben and the guilty he's had ever since and Peter finally forgives him and lets him go.
I'm not going to vote on Mortal Kombat as I don't believe I know enough about Onaga to make a judgment, but it sounds like Ordeaux has brought up some points against him counting that can't be ignored.
@43110 The reason he betrays Tau Zant is because he saw the writing on the wall and realized Tau Zant was going to Bad Boss him eventually, and he figured if Tau Zant was going to remake the universe, he'd rather kill him and become its new ruler rather than be a pawn who Tau Zant would eventually dispose of. And Sandaaru isn't killed because he's distracted, he's killed by the Gouraigers do something unexpected (from his point of view) and blow themselves up with him. If they hadn't done that he could have easily fought them off. Sandaaru also didn't just waltz in and immediately have the loyalty of the Seven Dark Spears, he had to get their trust first before he could really manipulate them.
Just imagine something here.
Eh, I'll just abstain I can see both points I just feel I would probably need to watch the show myself to make a proper vote.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes