During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
mir: Look I have no strong on Ben. I even abstained and mentioned how the other two current keepers did worse stuff. So, if you want to discuss rather he is bad enough I am okay with that but I did try to be as thorough as possible.
Edited by Bullman on Jun 29th 2022 at 7:44:58 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadYour EP was great Bull and I give it full compliments, it's exactly why I'm able to feel confident both seeing the case and judging where I think he doesn't quite measure up, so I mean no offence in my vote and in fact thank you very much for giving a good case to debate. To me the thefts only seem to occur when he's ultimately trying to defend an ideal or the object he's "stealing" and his kidnapping likewise seems a bit too on the side of not causing any actual harm. There are however quite a few upvotes, so clearly I'm not the only one with a stance here, easily a good character to talk over!
"(Anything to write home about on the CM front there Kaz?)"
Not really, King Zuou pass the Heinous Standard and has some of the most graphic scenes of the franchise. But he is a genuine Benevolent Boss to his elite soldiers and there is nothing that subverts this.
The fun thing is that there are more M Bs from Tetsuya Tashiro to discuss, but that's on his other ongoing series.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 29th 2022 at 7:44:51 AM
Watch me destroying my countryAh yes. Mato Seihei no Slave aka BDSM the manga.
.
Honestly I was wondering about a couple of Gods of thunder too.
Edit : Actually you know. Its specially mentioned on the Guile Hero page that they mean no harm and considering Ben doesn't even harm bad guys and he wasn't even going to hurt the president. I'll settle with no.
Edited by miraculous on Jun 29th 2022 at 5:56:15 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Actually for Ben. Didn't he still try to save Mitch even after the guy tried to kill him and his friends. I just think think we've rejected characters who are less selfless than this so?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."That he did mir. I feel like you are making good points.
As a side note is it okay if I call the upcoming National Treasure TV show. I am excited about that. Not just because I am fan of the movies but because it is going to have my favorite actress Catherine Zeta-Jones in it.
Edited by Bullman on Jun 29th 2022 at 8:08:18 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadGo for it. Though with the aforementioned Save the Villain moment I'm going to have to really cement my no on this particular character.
Edited by 43110 on Jun 29th 2022 at 9:15:53 AM
Alright, boys. Tonight, we dine on Turtle Soup!
What's the work?
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Shredder's Revenge is the ballin latest game in the titular franchise, which harkens back to the beloved beat-em-ups of the 80's. As the name implies, it focuses on the latest plan of The Shredder, who hosts yet another attempted take over New York City, having spread pieces of Krang's suit around the city for unknown reasons. The whole game is the Turtles, plus April O'Neal and Splinter, on a mad race against the Foot Clan to recover his Krang's suit pieces.
Who is Shredder? What does he do?
As you can tell, we're talking about Ol' Shredd Head himself, who's plot ends up more elaborate than it at first seems.
Anywho, the entire game is spent chasing after him and the Foot Clan, and all throughout he manages to stay one step ahead of the heroes, slowly getting each of the suit pieces while having his soldiers ambush them in various silly but creative ways. He himself makes two personal appearances to hinder the Turtles, first sending Tempestra after them while making off with the torso, then later unleashing a reprogrammed Metalhead on the Turtles. Eventually, their chase ends with the Turtles transported to Dimension X in the Technodrome, where both Krang and Shredder fight you back-to-back, with Shredder's fight being one of the hardest in the game. At this point, you might ask: what was the point behind the suit, again?
Nothing. After seemingly beating Shredder, it's the revealed that the suit plot was all one big distraction for the Turtles while Shredder enacts his real plan: have Krang and his men turn the Statue of Liberty into a god damn death mecha to kill the Turtles and take over New York. He then teleports them onto a platform face to face with the Statue of Tyranny, where all of its attacks could straight up instakill you if you aren't quick enough. The heroes are ultimately able to best it because Video Games, but even then the Shredder has one last trick: a vial of Mutagen, which he uses on himself to become Super Shredder and engage in one last brutal fight. The Turtles are eventually able to take him out and save New York, where all the credit is given to the Punk Frogs because of course.
Is he Magnificent?
Yup, I'd say so. The entire game ended up being an elaborate goose chase where Shredder managed to keep the complete transformation of a national landmark under the Turtles noses, all while setting up traps and ambushes to try and kill them in the process, and they only managed to stop it at the last minute. Combined with his characterization being firmly that of the "Badass Warrior" incarnations and his kickass boss theme? I'd say he does more than enough for an excuse plot.
Is he a Bastard
Organizes an invasion on New York, tries to kill the Turtles and friends, defiles a national landmark... yup, typical Sunday for Oroku.
Overall?
How's he looking?
It's mostly limited to a generic "I will have my revenge" Title Drop. More emphasis is placed on how cool his is rather than his obsession, and even then it's a silly arcade game where Shredder creates the Statue of Tyranny: safe to say there's less overt focus than usual here.
Yes to Shredder
So some people may remember that I said I wasn't going to propose anyone from Total Recall (2012) last year, however I'm starting to wonder if I should give a revisit. The film's version of Hauser I'm really unsure on since I don't remember of his Heel–Face Turn was real or not. The one I'm really debating if Cohagen, who isn't a sexist prick like the original, however I'm worried that he's too bad for this trope. His ultimate scheme is to wipe out the Colony (one of only two habitable places on Earth) so the overcrowded British can live there (which would kill millions). This has some nasty colonist vibes which I'm not sure how to feel about, but also I don't recall him ever talking about the plan in any great detail so it's difficult to gage how much of a Well-Intentioned Extremist he really is, for the record I was going to write him up as a CM until right before his death where he shows a redeeming quality (regret over having to kill Hauser).
@papyru From what I remember, Hauser actually went against Coohagen unless I missed something. Whatever you want to do with Coohagen is up to you and either way, I'm interested in seeing the results.
I'm good with whatever the thread decides about Ben.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 29th 2022 at 7:28:17 AM
for Yomihime. TIL Hinowa ga Crush has been cancelled.
Edited by 227someguy on Jun 29th 2022 at 10:42:29 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox
to Yomihime and the Shredder
Hearing Mir and 43’s arguments switching
to Ben
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 29th 2022 at 8:45:55 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSo there's this entry I'm a bit iffy on. It's from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Original EP here
- Grant Ward is the most personal foe Team Coulson ever faced. Introduced as the apparently stony but caring new recruit to Coulson's team, Ward bonds with his allies and assists them in all manner of successful missions, before being revealed as a deep cover HYDRA agent who has been playing his team all along. Twisted by his childhood abuse and surrogate father John Garrett, Ward is a cold, calculating machine with genuine affability towards enemy and ally alike, who has dedicated himself to "helping" others from the constraints of morality and the past. Ward regularly alternates between sworn enemy of Team Coulson and a necessary evil they ally with to take on bigger threats, always thinking several steps ahead and evading any attempts at capture or justice. After the loss of more than one loved one on the battlefield with S.H.I.E.L.D., Ward assumes control of HYDRA and weeds out many of the weakest links to create a formidable rival to S.H.I.E.L.D., before coming face-to-face with Gideon Malick himself and working with the man to travel to Maveth and return Hive to Earth. In the end, Ward views all of his suffering—including his approaching death—as a welcome necessity to finally finding his place in the universe as part of HYDRA's "grand plan."

And the guys he goes up against are actual bad guys.
Edited by miraculous on Jun 29th 2022 at 5:34:22 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."