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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#76401: Jun 7th 2022 at 5:05:39 PM

A lego candidate with a convoluted plan involving trampolines? how can I not say yes?

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#76403: Jun 7th 2022 at 5:24:12 PM

[tup] to Omo, Consequences, Lai and Bossk (Lego Star Wars is legendary).

[tdown] to Bromine.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Idisagree Since: Jun, 2011
#76404: Jun 7th 2022 at 5:54:03 PM

[tup] to Old Man Consequences and Lego Bossk

Edited by Idisagree on Jun 7th 2022 at 5:54:19 AM

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#76405: Jun 7th 2022 at 6:00:05 PM

[tup]Ros Lei, Lego Bossk

First proposal in a while so let's see how it goes. (Apologies for it seeming dysfunctional, I've typed it on my phone)

What is the work?

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is the second film in the eponymous Franchise, following said character in India going against a local death cult using brainwashed workers and child slaves, however the character I want to discuss is from the prologue Lao Che.

Who is Lao Che and what does he do

Lao Che is the Starter Villain in the Action Prologue and is a Chinese Don looking to discuss a meeting with Indiana about the ashes of an ancient emperor in trade for a diamond. Although they do the trade, Lao reveals that he poisoned Indy's drink and will give the antidote if he gives him the Diamond back.

Although Indy has his ally hold them at Gunpoint, Lao's son manages to sneak a shot while the champagne bottles are popping to blend it the shot in the noise, killing the ally. Indy in response throws a skewer at Lao's son, killing him and starting a scuffle in the club where Lao gets his goons to try and kill Indy who escapes.

Lao then engages in a car chase against Indy with Indy escaping on a plane with Lao Che glaring at Indy when he leaves... except that glare turns into a smile when it's revealed that the plane is owned by Lao Che who has his pilots abandon the plane to crash while Indy and his allies are asleep. Lao Che ends being a Karma Houdini.

Is he Magnificent?

For a starter villain, I'd say Lao Che leaves an impression, he had multiple solutions to the problems Indy provided and even ended up a Karma Houdini not before having a final plan to make sure Indy stays dead with the plane crash. He also ends up with what he wanted since he gets the emperor's ashes.

Is he a bastard?

Kills Indy's ally and tries to kill Indy, Willie and Short Round (who's a child) via a plane crash in the mountains.

When Indy threatens Willie to get Lao to do the trade when held at Gunpoint he accepts but when Indy does it again for the antidote, Lao simply remarks "I'll get another". Dick move but it's quite obvious Willie is a trophy wife so it's not a full Kick the Morality Pet moment.

He also seems to care about his sons as he's annoyed that Indy harmed one of them who tried to steal the ashes from him prior and has visible frustration at his other son dying by skewer.

Final Verdict

Starter Villain so doesn't have much screen time for some grand scheme. What say we?

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#76406: Jun 7th 2022 at 6:09:37 PM

[tup] to Bossk, abstain on Lao

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#76407: Jun 7th 2022 at 6:50:47 PM

[tup]Lao Che.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#76408: Jun 7th 2022 at 7:22:19 PM

I'm not sure if they both were his sons, but matters not. The one who fired the Tommy gun was DEFINITELY his son though. Haha. Funny how the sins video came out today too for this movie. Haha.

[tup] to Lao nonetheless though.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#76409: Jun 7th 2022 at 7:35:09 PM

Yes to CP 0, Berringer, Leighton, Anagmas, Ichibe, Vassenego, Jargala, Old Man Consequences, Bossk, and Lao.

No to Bromine.

Here are my Ghostbusters write ups:

  • The Real Ghostbusters: Of all the villains the Ghostbusters face, these two Halloween villains are among the most clever and dangerous:
    • From When Halloween Was Forever Samhain is a Celtic spirit that is the basis for Halloween. 1200 years Samhain was imprisoned in some ruins in Ireland. In modern times, the ruins were displayed in NYC and Samhain was freed by his minions. Samhain used his powers to create a cloud of darkness that spreads across the world and stops time, trying to make Halloween last forever. Samhain summons all ghosts in NYC to him and deduces that Slimer is an ally of the Ghostbusters, taking him hostage. Samhain also protected his ghost minions from the Ghostbusters seeing them as his children. The Ghostbusters defeated Samhain, but he reappears in the episode Halloween II 1/2. After being freed from the containment unit, Samhain uses his magic to transform the Ghostbusters firehouse into his personal fortress, denying the Ghostbusters most of their resources. Samhain's fortress is surrounded by a forcefield that protects him from the Ghostbusters attacks. Samhain also captures the Junior Ghostbusters to force the Ghostbusters to surrender to him.
    • In the Halloween Door Boogaloo is a fun-loving demon lord. 2000 years ago, the world was infested with demons. The Druids struck a deal with the demons, the worst of them would go back to the spirit world and humanity would have one day to remember them, Halloween. Wanting to break the Halloween deal, Boogaloo sends his minion Fairweather to Earth. Fairweather is disguised as a human and helps an anti-Halloween extremist, Dr. Crowley, build an anti-Halloween machine. Crowley activates the machine, wiping out all traces of Halloween, and breaking the Halloween deal. Boogaloo and his minions appear on Earth and Boogaloo has his minions destroy Crowley's machine and free all the ghosts from the Containment Unit. Boogaloo is one of the few villains who almost achieved complete victory.

Edited by Overlord on Jun 7th 2022 at 7:35:50 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#76410: Jun 7th 2022 at 7:48:21 PM

Yes to Bossk and Lao. Has anyone checked Lego Indiana Jones for candidates?

Edit: [tdown] to Lao regarding further information.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 7th 2022 at 10:57:26 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#76412: Jun 7th 2022 at 8:23:35 PM

Anybody see my suggestions for the Disney sandbox?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 7th 2022 at 8:23:52 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#76413: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:02:29 PM

oh wait fuck late

jupiterascendingentrynow

  • Jupiter Ascending: Kalique Abrasax is the most level-headed of the three Abrasax siblings, and the most effective in accomplishing her goals. Upon learning of the psychotic Balem's aspiration to summon Jupiter Jones, their mother's genetic reincarnation, Kalique pays off his bounty hunters to instead collect her and to bring her to Kalique. Sacrificing humans for her business and eternal youth but constantly affable, Kalique politely explains Jupiter's situation to her, before Jupiter's bodyguard Caine arrives to protect her. When Caine arrives, Kalique lets the two go amicably and even notes that Jupiter leaving safely and claiming her title was what she wanted all along, completely claiming victory over her brothers and achieving all her goals through one stroke of brilliant planning.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#76414: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:06:01 PM

With no objections, here's Bossk and his trampoline scheme:

I was gonna check up on Phasma from the Force Awakens game, but imo I feel like here defeats a mite too humiliating even by LEGO standards. Still, from memory the series take on Jack Sparrow comes off fairly well and Nwot just showed me a fun unexpected potential one, so expect some more LEGO in the near future.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jun 7th 2022 at 9:29:40 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#76415: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:16:29 PM

Ignore the fact I really think Lao Che is just a glorified Karma Houdini Smug Snake even in the film he debuts in, there's canon novels that establish Lao Che is a white slaver (the same twelve-book series that I plumbed the shit out of for CM).

It's offscreen, which is why I never brought him up on CM, but no, Lao Che is too scummy for this trope.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#76416: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:17:43 PM

After talking with Scraggle, I have to say [tdown] to Lao Che. there's spinoff books that are canon to Indiana Jones, and those books show that Lao Che is involved with Human Trafficking, and in general is too scummy.

EDIT:[nja]

Edited by nwotyzal on Jun 7th 2022 at 9:18:03 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#76418: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:23:47 PM

...oof.

Changing to an [tdown] on Lao. Sorry that I didn't catch that.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#76419: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:29:47 PM

Yikes. [tdown] to Lao then unfortunately. Even with how heinous the slavery/human trafficking stuff sounds, he probably wouldn't make CM anyway due to caring about his son.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#76420: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:35:20 PM

[tup] for Ros Lai, and Lego Bossk.

[tdown] for Lao Che.

magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#76421: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:40:31 PM

[tup] to Rossk and Boss, [tdown] to Lao

Has Raya and the Last Dragon been discussed on this thread, and does anyone think that the movie may have keepers?

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#76422: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:44:03 PM

I am going to have to say [tdown] Lao then. In fairness Wet honestly probably didn't know that if this info really comes from a novel.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#76423: Jun 7th 2022 at 9:57:46 PM

Having watched the opening scene, he didn't seem especially smug in a way that would be disqualifying, and I'm always iffy about disqualifying on Expanded Universe material, which are prone to being retconned at the drop of a hat. Nonetheless changing to [tdown] on Lao.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#76424: Jun 7th 2022 at 10:04:32 PM

I've seen Last Dragon and I don't think anyone keeps. Anyone who's bad enough lacks the charm

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#76425: Jun 7th 2022 at 10:28:14 PM

  • Eric: Duke Vassenego is an ancient demon who sets the plot in motion to overthrow King Astfgl and return Hell to the old ways. Releasing disembodied spirits didn't feel physical pain, Astfgl turned Hell into a boring dystopia where souls were read instruction manuals and shown vacation slideshows for all eternity. Seeking the restore a time where both demons and damned could be happy, Astfgl manipulates inept wizard Rincewind into being summoned in his place by teen demonologist Eric. Using his own magic to frame Rincewind as satisfying Eric's wishes, he sends the pair on a dangerous journey through time to distract Astfgl long enough to engineer his downfall. Bringing the pair to Hell as a final distraction, he gives Astfgl meaningless promotion and to be left alone in a boring office doing pointless paperwork forever while he takes over as the new King of Hell.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

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