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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#726: May 17th 2018 at 3:20:32 PM

[tup] Simon Gruber.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#727: May 17th 2018 at 3:46:33 PM

[up][up] I am gonna destroy your dreams and tell that Makishima cant count.

1) There very good acussations of Villain Sue to do there

2) He is a absolute over-the-top pyscho in a series full of them.

[down] Are you sure? Because I actually see him being Obviously Evil (I mean, white hair and calm behavior? That is so obviously evil that is laughable how people In-Universe seem to think that is good looking)

I mean, the whole point of his character was that he was SO EVIL that even the system wasnt able to detect it (which is kinda hilarious when you realize that objetively, he is not the only Complete Monster, which means that the show failed at presenting him as the worst person everTM)

EDIT.

I had a pathological to do this.

psssh...nothin personnel...kid...

bio: Shogo Makishima was born with a special power. he was smarter than all his fellow citizens in Japan and had a unique mindset. At some time in his life Makishima discovers that he can control his Psycho-Pass at will, while no one else can, probably because he was rejected as a regular human being by Sibyl, who was unable to recognize him, torments him to the point that he loses his mind and feels compelled to destroy the Sibyl System.

likes: hurtin people, bein badass, nine inch nails (the band), killing, death, jeans, darkness, hot cops with big guns, purple (cool kind not gay kind)

dislikse: niceness, happiness, sunshine, life, the Sybil system, football.

I had to copy lines from the wiki to do the Bio line. Lets that speak

edited 17th May '18 7:09:23 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#728: May 17th 2018 at 3:47:47 PM

Hmm... I haven't seen Psycho Pass in years and I recall Makishima being at least less creepy than Johan but Kaz raises some valid concerns there.

Kazuya, these sound like specific characteristics you like to look for in a villain as opposed to something a little more archetypal, like red eyes and devil horns. Makishima could well be worth a proposal, at the moment I'm leaning no but I also don't think he's an over the top, constant dog kicker type of no counter.

edited 17th May '18 4:07:51 PM by 43110

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#729: May 17th 2018 at 3:50:48 PM

The Western Animation has this entry for Ed, Edd, n' Eddy:

From the show's YMMV page

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Double D's reaction to the revelation that Jimmy was behind everything in "If It Smells Like An Ed" is basically to call Jimmy this, being impressed rather than angry like Eddy is.
    • Double D gets a chance to be one as well in "Mission Ed-Possible" when he tricks Ed and Eddy into pursuing him to regain their report cards so they can artificially improve their grades, while Rolf, on Double D's instructions, secretly delivers said report cards to their parents.

And from the YMMV page for the episode in question

The characters page also mentions this.

I don't getting revenge on three people, two of which didn't really deserve it, warrants being called a Magnificent Bastard.

edited 17th May '18 3:51:30 PM by costanton11

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#730: May 17th 2018 at 3:52:48 PM

The Psycho Pass doesn't fail to capture him because he's so evil, but because his mindset can't be captured by its system,something the SIBYL system wants. It's a classic example of Pure Is Not Good

The other thing is Makishima isn't an over the top psychopath. He never gives way to hysterics or theatrics, and while he is an undisputed CM, he's got a definite charm to him.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#731: May 17th 2018 at 3:59:37 PM

[up] Said mindset is basically "Being The Sociopath as much as you can"

I have to admit that his design just make me laught, is so damn Obviously Evil that I cant avoid thinking how the series act like he is so charismatic.

All that I have to see is, when others see a potential Magnificent Bastard, I just see a Villain Sue.

This is truly a YMMV trope for a good reason. But seriously, the whole "my mindset is so special" thing just screams Villain Sue.

these sound like specific characteristics you like to look for in a villain as opposed to something a little more archetypal, like red eyes and devil horns. Makishima could well be worth a proposal, at the moment I'm leaning no but I also don't think he's an over the top, constant dog kicker type of no counter.

He is the picture for White Hair, Black Heart. You cant get more Obviously Evil than that.

edited 17th May '18 4:15:53 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#732: May 17th 2018 at 4:19:28 PM

You're... not a big fan, are you?

[down] Okayyy... well, let's leave our Berserk Buttons on the bench, dial 'er back a bit and analyze this trope without such high emotion, please.

[down] It's all good, dude but going forward can you maybe just say you don't think Makishima's going to make the cut and a bullet point or two why as opposed to... this. This is all hypothetical anyways and we're derailing a bit so let's leave until if and when he does pop up.

edited 17th May '18 4:34:48 PM by 43110

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#733: May 17th 2018 at 4:21:33 PM

[up] Urobutchi is one of my personal Berserk Button and lets leave there.

I liked Kyubey tho. I love when the entire universe needs despair because...reasons. But I still unironically like Kyubey. A well intentioned cute cosmic fox.

And that is why I put Rebellion under Fanon Discontinuity

[up] I can do that, I voted for Evil Morty even if I dislike the character. Is just that Makishima...ugh, I cant gave him a vote or even let him get one. In good conscience, there a limit of how Obviously Evil can be a villain and Makishima broke it.

I proposed Lysandre, a guy who does fight in a Dr. Octopus-like suit. I voted for a masked guy with daddy issues and his friend who cant get over a girl.

I am doing my best to be objetive, but hey, this trope is YMMV

edited 17th May '18 4:31:16 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#734: May 17th 2018 at 4:38:22 PM

Well,that'll down to a major matter of opinion. I think hes worth discussion....that said, I have a new example:

The work is Rurouni Kenshin, concerning Kenshin Himura, a pleasant, gentle wanderer with a dark past: Kenshin was one the 'Hitokiri Battosai' in the Meiji Revolution, a killer so fearsome, all knew his name. But when the war was over, he vanished...taking a vow to never kill again, carrying a reverse-blade sword (the usual blade side being blunt)... now, let's talk the first Big Bad of the series, the arch villain of its first major arc, Kenshin's Evil Counterpart: Makoto Shishio.

Who is Makoto Shishio?

A fellow 'Hitokiri' (or 'Manslayer') who succeeded Kenshin, Shishio was a man of near unparalleled skill and ambition. When the Meiji government was established though, it was determined that Shishio was simply too dangerous to be left alive, with so much knowledge of the dirty business of the Meiji. Shishio was shot in the head, savaged by dogs and burned.

....he lived. His body was ravaged, his sweat glands destroyed, Shishio went on the run and began to ponder what'd happened to him. Shishio decided on a plan. While he loathed the Meiji government for its hypocrisy and imperialism, Shishio....didn't hate them for what happened to him. In fact? He was even grateful for making him stronger. Little by little, Shishio used his charisma and skill to win over followers, forming the Juppongatana (the Ten Swords), and an army of followers. Kenshin is enlisted by a former minister to take Shishio down...Shishio, however? Has said minister, Okubo, assassinated beforehans, deciding to throw the government into political upheaval to give him the way forward.

Now, Shishio? Each member of the Juppongatana is unique, some there to hone their own skills, but Shishio is brilliant at manipulating others to follow him. One such man is a fighter Shishio blinded in a duel years ago, who is only there so he can kill Shishio one day. However, secretly? He's realized Shishio is too strong, but Shishio has already seen through his intentions and has him dancing on a string.

Now, when Kenshin and Shishio get close to a first major confrontation, it turns out Shishio has the Juppongatana deployed throughout Tokyo. Their goal? Lighting a set of fires, committing a grand arson, inspiring an uprising!....except this is a total front against the government. Shishio ends up using this as a complete feint while he takes a battleship and attacks Kyoto instead. The plot ends up barely foiled due to the good guys and Shishio retreats with his men, luring out Kenshin and the others with a series of one on one duels.

However? In a bit of a twist on Shonen convention, Shishio intends on using these duels to weaken the heroes in fighting him, and sends another force to attack Kenshin's other combatant friends, partly to eliminate the threat, partly to throw Kenshin off his game...before manipulating Kenshin's rival and Kenshin into a confrontation, and then having his strongest soldier fight Kenshin. The purposes here? If Kenshin loses? Great. But if he wins, Shishio has his lover Yumi observing the fight so she can report to him Kenshin's abilities. So Kenshin is weakened for his fight with Shishio and Shishio gains a leg up...because once he sees an attack? It won't work twice.When Kenshin finally faces Shishio, he's worn down as hell, and the only reason Kenshin survives is due to his final ultimate technique and his injured friends all facing Shishio once after the other to buy him time. Shishio's lover Yumi, when Shishio's body is acting up tries to convince Kenshin to end the fight...only for Shishio to use her as cover to impale her from behind to stab Kenshin. In the ensuing final battle, Shishio seems ready to seize victory, when his body, overheated, catches fire. Shishio ends up consumed in fire, burning to ashes...though the last we see of him? His most loyal right hand man commits suicide, ending up in hell...only to find Shishio and Yumi waiting. Shishio cheerfully invites him to assist in conquering hell itself.

Is he charismatic? Intelligent? Thinks on his feet?

absolutely. Shishio has incredible style and substance. He's charming, often polite and complimentary to enemies, with an unmistakable charisma. Many of his men follow him for his strength, but also because he's unbelievably good at rallying people and getting them to believe in him. As far as intellect goes? Absolutely. Shishio is an exceptional strategist and tactician, with his Tokyo plan being a brilliant battle plan...one he knew would be discovered, and a complete front, while he attacked the less-defended Kyoto, only losing because of elements he couldn't possibly foresee. Not only that, but he's exceptionally smart on a personal level, able to get in people's heads and use their personalities, whether it be their pride, their loyalty, or rivalry with him to make them dance to his tune, and he subverts typical shonen tropes in using fights as part of his strategy to weaken his enemies, and gain an advantage no matter what outcome.

Plus, one attack fails on him because he was smart enough to guard his head with an iron headband after being shot the one time. It's also worth noting he dies ultimately not due to being outfought, but to a physical condition where his body overheats too much, which is even impliedto be fate itself stepping in. He takes it really well, all things considered.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

Shishio is the bad guy, obviously. He has people killed, his plans would create a dog-eat-dog country where the strongest live, but he truly believes it to be better for the world at large, and he's capable at times of mercy, love and honor. He does truly, genuinely love Yumi and when he uses her death to gain an advantage, he rebukes Kenshin's accusation that the betrayed her, stating Yumi and he know one another better than anyone, and Yumi even states her happiness in being able to contribute to Shishio's ultimate fight, while he tenderly holds her as she dies, reuniting with her happily in hell later.

He's definitely a bad guy. Unequivocally...but he's no CM, and he sticks out among a ton of irredeemable smug snakes in the series.

Conclusion?

I'd give him a keep. Shishio is one of the mroe intelligent, manipulative and charismatic Shonen baddies, despite his pride in his overwhelming power, he values manipulation and tactics very highly.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#735: May 17th 2018 at 4:41:24 PM

Yes to Shishio and thanks for gathering all that so well. It's funny, all I remembered about him was that he was a badass swordsman. Granted, it was a looooong time ago I read the manga.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#736: May 17th 2018 at 4:46:08 PM

[tup] to Shishio.

I to am interested in seeing an EP about Makishima.

Also any more votes on Lysandre?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#738: May 17th 2018 at 4:49:33 PM

[up] Destroy them

[tup] Shishio

Also, I'd officially want reserve Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne and it's version of Lucifer.

It would be a long thing and I will need to debunk a lot of fanon stuff (like saying that all the Reason endings are Law and benefit them, they're not, YHVH is not using the Conception to His own benefit, he's just doing his job as the Top God by making sure that nobody interfere in them).

Mainly because Lucifer had a lot of Draco in Leather Pants. Which is something that had caused a lot of issues with the fanbase as a whole

edited 17th May '18 4:53:34 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#739: May 17th 2018 at 4:56:14 PM

Cut the Ed, Edd, n' Eddy examples.

Didn't that game come out a while ago? Are we doing reservations for already released media?

[down] If you want, go for it!

edited 17th May '18 5:33:39 PM by 43110

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#740: May 17th 2018 at 4:59:19 PM

[up] We mentioned it, but I don't think who someone reclaimed it "officially"

It was Tropers/miraculous, right?

PD: It just says that Lucifer could be a good candidate. So I guess that I can do the Effort Post

edited 17th May '18 5:03:07 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#741: May 17th 2018 at 6:43:08 PM

I'll give a "yes" to Shishio. Makishima...I don't see the charm. People tell me he's charming, but I just find him pretentious and edgy. He pretty much ruined the show for me.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#742: May 17th 2018 at 6:43:21 PM

From Jackie Chan Adventures

...holy shit, good entries for once.

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Tarakudo is the most well-spoken, personable and collected of the Arc Villains and the least harsh taskmaster towards the Dark Hand. He doesn't react to defeats as badly as the others, being instead able to find ways to turn unexpected turns into advantages (like initiating the Oni Mask-wearing Captain Black's corruption by tricking him into summoning his Shadowkhan). In the 4th season's finale, he's revealed to have all along played a Xanatos Gambit that goes like this: whatever the Dark Hand or the Chans collect all nine Oni Masks, they will free his Generals by bringing all the masks in the same location, with only him knowing of the consequences. The heroes discover a way to defeat him — the mask made specifically to seal him — only by accident and even then, Tarakudo is revealed to have hidden the mask in the Shadow Realm, which is accessible to humans only by using the Shadowkhan to take them there. The J-Team gets the mask at the cost of Tohru being corrupted by Tarakudo's mark. Before Tarakudo is sealed inside his mask, he's given a physical body and stripped of his telekinetic powers. He faces the J-Team with martial arts and single-handedly defeats Jackie, El Toro and Viper. Only by distracting him they are able to slam his mask on his face.
    • Valmont, though only in the 1st season. By that time, he's presented as a sophisticated and good-looking crime lord who seemed to be able to remain in control in most of the situations. Whenever he appeared, he remained cool and gelid snarky whatever addressing his henchmen, his enemies or Shendu. He was also able to react to misfortunes better than in the later seasons. In both of the only times he personally faced Jackie, he fared better than his henchmen. He came up with a Xanatos Gambit, which included poisoning Jackie with venom that turns its victim to stone: either the Talismans stored in Section 13 are handed over to the Dark Hand or the heroes lose Jackie, which would tip the balance in the Dark Hand's favor (which is something Jade notes to Jackie who's selling himself short). He was also smart enough to not bring the antidote anywhere close to Jackie prematurely. After Shendu betrays him and he's arrested, he's revealed to have as a false tooth a homing beacon that allows his Sword Cane to levitate to his position. Sadly, Valmont never demonstrates anything this impressive in any of the following seasons.

Lets cut Valmont because the entry itself admit that he went under Villain Decay but lets keep Tarakudo

Is a miracle!! Lets admire my discovery!!!

[up]

Makishima is the Anime version of Coldsteel The Hedgehog

edited 17th May '18 6:50:32 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#743: May 17th 2018 at 6:54:11 PM

I wouldn't go that far, but he's not likely to get my vote barring a really compelling argument.

Looking at those examples, Valmont is a clear and obvious cut given what an absolute joke he becomes later on. The other character I can't say I remember.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#744: May 17th 2018 at 7:26:59 PM

On the Web Original page. there are quite a few zero context examples:

  • Broken Saints has a truly magnificent one in its Big Bad, Lear Dunham.

  • If you play Mitadake High and are a charismatic Kira, as opposed to a n00b or someone lucky enough to run into the Eyes and get their help early, you will be one of these. It's basically a victory requirement.
  • The eponymous Bastard Operator from Hell, scourge of users, the Boss, the HR droids and the beancounters. Complete with his Bastard Understudy, The Pimply Faced Youth.
  • Konstantine Ivanov of Baade in Imperium Nova.
  • Fancing Badboy Raphael De La Croix from The Onion.
  • In Decades of Darkness, *US president Hugh Griffin, and of course *Otto von Bismarck (who's a bit different from his Real Life counterpart, but no less magnificent)!
    • Russian Emperor Alexander II (not even the same man) also deserves a mention.
      British Ambassador: Why have you declared war on Great Britain?!
      Alexander: Because every Great Game must end in checkmate.

  • Doctor Steel is about as magnificent as they come.
  • New York Magician: Malsumis certainly qualifies.

I know nothing about any of these works, so I have no idea if they apply.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#745: May 17th 2018 at 7:38:08 PM

For those Web Original examples? Cut them all and anyone who wants one revisited can EP.

Why are we jumping to keep Tarakudo? He hasn't gotten an EP and so far the only person who's responded to your finding said he doesn't recall enough about the character. You know what to do if you don't want me to chop him, Kaz.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#746: May 17th 2018 at 7:39:42 PM

The examples are on the locked page.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#747: May 17th 2018 at 7:40:24 PM

[up][up] EP time? Yeah. But let's keep that entry anyway until we decide.

I will have to ask a lot of people.

The reason why I wanna say keep is only because the entry is good enough. It really sells him as this trope and unless it's based on lies, I am pretty inclined to say Keep

[down] It's a Zero Context Example as well

edited 17th May '18 7:43:57 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#748: May 17th 2018 at 7:42:37 PM

From Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

It mentions that he's a Complete Monster, so I think he's too evil to count.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#749: May 17th 2018 at 7:49:53 PM

Kazuya, it's really not all that well written and I'm not interested in keeping something unverified. I'm going to ask for it cut on Sunday unless it's been effort posted. This isn't David Xanatos, he's not an unambiguous keeper and there's no way that current entry is actually up to the standards I'm looking for now.

For the ones on the locked pages? You know how I'm dealing with them.

edited 17th May '18 7:50:28 PM by 43110

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016

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