During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
to the Witch Queen, Max, Chess and Watts.
Hey, World of Ice and Fire is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it? Let's not stop now! You know who this list needs?
A Stark.
Who is Theon Stark?
"The Hungry Wolf." Theon was the King in the North in ages past, a brutal warrior who was famously gaunt and skinny, hence his name. So, y'know how the Starks are honorable, noble enforcers for the crown? Their ancestors were brutal imperialists and Theon was no different.
Theon was the King when the Andals invaded Westeros. He is also the reason that the North remained pretty Andal-free. When the Andal Warlord Argos Sevenstar led an invasion, Theon struck up an alliance with House Bolton, lured Argos into a trap, smashed his forces, put his body on the prow of a ship, sailed to Andalos and burned the fuck out of their village before leaving spiked heads along the coast as a sign to stay out of the north.
Theon proceeded to conquer more territory with his strategic acumen, smashed rebels to nothing and then led the Stark forces to the Night Watch to impose a defeat on the Wildlings they're still smarting from. As he had apparently won every war it was possile to win at this juncture, he road up to the I Ronborn Raiders, defeated them, too and secured a hold on the North that was never to be broken until the War of Five Kings.
Put it this way: he made such an impression, the Ironborn are still naming their kids after him. Theon eventually died and was interred within the crypts of Winterfell, where he has a statue to his memory.
Mitigating issues?
Hahahahaha....
Look, Theon is a genius, winning battle after battle by his strategic acumen. The guy is probably one of the single most successful, undefeated kings before Aegon the Conqueror and he is explicitly a nasty guy. For reference, he attacked Andal villages and wiped them out, which means civilians absolutely died. He might be resisting a foreign incursion, but this is definitely brutal as it gets.
Conclusion?
Yes to the Hungry Wolf.
Theon.
Is Cregan Stark on your To-Do-List? Or is he too heroic? I'm looking over his AWOIAF article
, and he does seem to have some ruthlessness, especially given how grey the conflict was.
@J: I've thought about Cregan but I don't know. It's not just that he's ruthless it's that he's pretty infelixble and they had to really bargain him down from restarting a massive civil war because he was really out for blood.
We also need more ladies on this list! Let's talk one.
In fact, the Dornish need some representation. Let's talk their queen.
Whos is Nymeria Martell?
Beautiful, passionate, strong willed and out to smash the patriarchy to tinders, Nymeria reigned as a princess in Rhoyne. The Rhoynish opted to face the Valyrians in battle, a move Nymeria regarded as foolish. She was disregarded and Valyria responded in kind with dragons. This went predictably.
The Rhoynih were shattered, the Valyrians overrunning city after city. Knowing her own was next, Nymeria evacuated her city in full, what history remembers as the Ten Thousand Ships (it was likely far less). Nymeria led these refugees down through perilous waters to avoid Valyria, settling first on the Basilisk Islands where Nymeria fended off a pirate incursion and refused their "generous" offers of safety in return for 30 virgins a year. Settlements kept failing and Nymeria kept sailing.
They landed in Dorne. The southernmost region of Westeros, Dorne has coasts, and thick desert sands, with three ethnicities of Dornishmen: Stony, Salty and Sandy. The Stony are coastal, often blond and fair. Salty are olive skinned and more inland. Sandy are dark-skinned, living near the desert.
Dorne, then, was a divided land of feuding kingdoms and Nymeria met with one of them: Mors Martell, of House Martell. Nymeria's people were expert crafters and brought their skills, with Nymeria arranging numerous marriages between Mors' followers and Rhoynish women. To solidify the alliance, she and Mors wed.
Enter Nymeria's War, where Nymeria declared her and Mors the rightful rulers of Dorne. She led a campaign to subdue the other Kings of Dorne and make them bow to the Martells. At last, only King Yorick Yronwood remained and he killed Mors in combat. Nymeria took up command, outmaneuevred Yronwood and made him kneel to her, before sending him to the Wall.
Nymeria was undisputed ruler of Dorne and set up Dorne as a principality as Rhoyne had been. She remained the undisputed master of Dorne for 27 years. She married twice more: once to the elderly Lord Uller of Hellholt, once to Ser Davos Dayne of Starfall, the Sword of the Morning. But she made it clear that these men were counselors and consorts, not rulers. Nymeria outwitted assassins, put down rebellions and crushed an army by the Storm King.
Most notably, when she died? Nymeria ensured her successor was her eldest daughter and not her son by Davos Dayne, establishing that Dorne would be succeeded by the eldest child: male or female.
Mitigating issues?
Lesse: she's a determined badass queen who sailed her people across perilous straits. She then declared herself and her husband the top rulers and proceeded to subjugate everyone else around there. Nymeria did all that. In fact, she led it. It's pointed out that despite the common image, Nymeria wasn't a "warrior" in the sense she wielded weaponry. But she was the mastermind behind the armies.
And yeah, she is waging wars of conquest to take over Dorne. No shying away from that. And sending defeated Kings to the wall is a nasty move, even Aegon the Conqueror let defeated rivals serve in his kingdom if they bent the damn knee. Nymeria? "off to frozen hell for you!"
But hey, she's driven by a desire to save her people, by all accounts she loved Mors and probably Davos Dayne (Uller was a political marriage and presumably died early) and she set up succession so women in Dorne can inherit, too.
Conclusion?
Heck yes.
Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 28th 2022 at 7:42:53 AM
Hmm that is a point, still you can't deny he was undeniably effective as a hand in his short time. I'll let those more familiar with the supplementary material decide.
Nymeria.
Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 28th 2022 at 10:46:55 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midYes to Watts, Nymeria and Theon.
- Peter Fleming/Chess is a self-made billionaire who supplies vital services to Palm city, eventually including its police. He is also the psychopathic crime lord named Chess, who is a manifestation of Fleming's darker split personality, although his normal side also seems conniving and amoral. He claims that he wants good things for Palm City, but even if he is sincere, he runs illegal arms, murders honest city officials, scapegoats loyal subordinates and innocent family men, and threatens people's families. Fleming seeks to suppress his Chess persona for unclear reasons, and also is looking for his missing daughter, unaware that she is working with The Cape. Fleming redirects military satellites to see out his enemies. He forms a brief Enemy Mine moment with the Cape to personally navigate the underbelly of a moving train that he's a passenger on to keep it from crashing. He claims to know the value of I Owe You My Life, but will make exceptions and try to kill the Cape to eliminate the obstacle to his empire. Fleming ends the series with his power and reputation cracked, but still intact.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 28th 2022 at 7:52:39 AM
Three more possible images for the Batman magnificent bastard page.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comicbookherald.com%2Fcatwoman-reading-order%2F&psig=AOvVaw3EQeAF5th79FyJy2cRetK2&ust=1648660795945000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAgQjRxqFwoTCLjr-53q6_YCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAK
(the first image on the page)
Edited by Melinda on Mar 29th 2022 at 10:22:33 AM

Yes to Chess and Watts.