During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Put these below Vetinari.
- Discworld
- Sourcery: Conina the Hairdresser is a stunningly beautiful barbarian heroine whose hardened instincts prevent a simple life as a hair stylist. An impossibly skilled thief who once pickpocketed jewels the victim had swallowed for safekeeping, her theft of the Archchancellor's hat prevents Coin the Sourcerer from gaining its powers. Threatening the cowardly wizard Rincewind into helping her find it a suitable host, she uses her street smarts and weaponized usage of a comb and scissors to lead a journey around the world. During the great magical war in the climax, she outplays an unhelpful genie to force its aid and steals the Four Horsemen's horses to help save the Discworld from an apocalyptic fate.
- Wyrd Sisters: King Verence was the beloved lord of Lancre until he was murdered by the treacherous Lord Felmut. Unable to rest, his great vitality in life allows his spirit to manipulate objects, and thus lures and traps the cat of the witch "Nanny" Ogg to guide her to him and plan his vengeance. When Nanny is captured by Felmut, he tries to slay his slayer and rescue her, but is stopped by the wise "Granny" Weatherwax who saves her peer instead. Escaping by having Nanny carry a castle brick, he plots with them to move time forward so he son can age and return to claim his throne. When Felmut hosts a play to denounce the witches, Verence possesses his actor son and reveals the truth for all Lancre to see. This drives Felmut to madness and death and allows Verence to pass on at last.
- John Wick 3: Parabellum: The Shinobi are the Co-Dragons to the ruthless assassin Continental, matching and even exceeding their master in sheer tenacity and honor. Helping Zero to tactically wipe out enemies of the Continental and slaying enemy assassins before they can touch John Wick, the two find their finest moments when they challenge John Wick to a direct fight. Ambushing Wick and getting him into a position where they can kill him, the Shinobi instead elect to spare his life for the honor and thrill of fighting Wick, and their sense of fair play leads to John Wick returning the favor and sparing their lives out of mutual respect.
Extension on Savathûn? Sure, why not. Give it a go and see how far you get. Summing up her Magnificence in just 250 words may indeed be tricky, but I do feel that she's more Bastard than Monster. The recent Seasons have had a solid underlying theme of learning to work with our former enemies (Uldren/the Crow, House Light, and Caiatl's Legion), and Immaru escaped at the end of the main plot for a reason. My personal suspicion is that Immaru will get a season or two of bumbling around screwing all of her plans up, then we'll find some reason to bring ol' Savvy-thûn back and she'll set all of his stupidity right again. She'll decide to work with us instead of against us (at least for a bit) and then, I don't know, disappear into a black hole again to contemplate how best to turn Xivu Arath into an artisanal rug for the Guardian to hang in the Tower.
As for the actual proposal text I'd say go rewrite it from scratch given all the changes and reveals. It may be needed to maintain brevity.
Hey everyone, surprised to see me? During my time away I developed a couple of worthy ideas for MBs.
Also, just an heads up, FANDOM now has their own version of this known as the "Magnificent Baddie Wiki", which I also have a part time job on. So, I'm going to be splitting my time on there and on here.
Plus, I had actually tried doing "Eliza" from I Am Frankie approved with a similar write-up to here, and they actually accepted her. And she has an official page: [1]
Edited by SpaceProtagonist on Mar 28th 2022 at 8:32:07 AM
- Max Malini is the showy but introspective bank-robbing magician and circus owner who forms an alliance of mutual convenience with Vince (who he initially contemplates killing for being useless to him) to hurt Fleming by stealing his money. Max gives Vince the eponymous cape and teaches him how to use it. A bond develops between the two, and Max seems to get more invested in Vince's crusade. Nonetheless, he won't abandon a lucrative heist to help Vince and the two sadly agree that one day they may become enemies. Nonetheless, they continue to work together and show concern for each other. Max also claims to have fallen out with the cape's murderous previous wearer due to the man getting Drunk on the Dark Side enough to scare Max and make him regret his own darkest deeds. However, there are hints that Max has engineered Vince into using the cape for some mysterious, greater plan of his own. While the series resolves without revealing the good or evil nature of Max's ultimate goal, and whether it will ever succeed, he remains composed, intelligent, and encouraging even in the last moments of the show.
The Cape #5
Who is Chess?
Peter Fleming/Chess is the billionaire CEO of the ARK corporation, which takes over Palm City's law enforcement due to police corruption and the crime of the mysterious masked criminal leader Chess. When he's stressed, the Chess persona eggs him to do dark and violent things and at times Chess takes over his body entirely but Fleming has dissociative identity disorder and he is Chess. His mind sees everything like a chess game. However it also seems like he does some bad stuff when Fleming is in control and Chess is dormant, so that muddles the issue. He frames Vince Faraday for being Chess when Vince finds out what he's doing and ends up fighting Vince (not knowing it) once Vince becomes The Cape to fight him. He is also the father of Vince's ally Orwell.
He is the Big Bad, although there are a few independent villains like Gregor Molotov.
What does he do?
In the past he did something to his daughter Jamie's mother and she since lets him think that she's a rebellious runaway in Europe while really she uses her money to operate as the blogger Orwell and try to bring Fleming down. As mentioned above, he frames Vince and forces his best friend and corrupt colleague Marty Voyt to help.
He spends most of the time cementing his hold over the city, being a Villain with Good Publicity and sending the odd assassin after The Cape. When his associate Scales feels disrespected by Fleming and his high society friends, this leads to a standoff where Fleming (as a cowboy at a costume party) ends up tipping his hat at Scales when the trainers are separated and Fleming ends up on a runaway train. Fleming is Theo only engineer onboard and reluctantly teams up with the Cape to fix the breaks. Once they're out of everyone's earshot, threatens not to do so and kill the all unless the Cape reveals his identity, but this is just a bluff and he does stop the train when the Cape won't give in. The Cape leaves after telling him this isn’t a game. Once he leaves Chess says he wishes that were true in a maybe smug or maybe sorrowful way.
He's targeted by Dice, the daughter of a man he killed, and is only saved by the Cape.
He sends Goggles and Hicks to kill the Cape and gets a piece of th Cape, leaving him with the potential to duplicate it (although this is never resolved) but also blows his identity to learn Vince is alive and The Cape by insulting and firing his assassins at the wrong time. He also gets a good one-liner when Goggles says ahi is only meets people he kills with Fleming saying there’s someone he’s like Hicks to meet.
He hire a shrink to try and banish Chess from his mind but Chess is getting stronger at the and of the show and it is hinted the doctor may be betraying him to make a deal with Chess to help that personality.
When an unaffiliated villain The Lich, threatens to issue a brainwashing chemical into the city Fleming is kind of an Obstructive Bureaucrat and not as worried as he should be toward Voyt who is having a rare moment of trying to be a real cop.
When Vince gets incriminating video evidence of ARK people making deals with Sacales and using Fleming's name, he relates it. Fleming scapegoats Voyt, throws him in jail and threatens his family, then tries to have him killed when Voyt considers making a deal. He has Scales kill Voyt but then has Scales arrested and scapegoats him as well. Reporters who seem sympathetic to the Cape and suspicious of him ask him questions but be brushes them off and leaves, although he frowns once his back is turned, leaving the series unresolved.
Magnificent
He always claims he is doing what he does to make Palm City "clean and safe" with may or may not be true.
In "Kozmo" he demands that satellites be devoted to trackign Orwell. When Voyt objects that those are military satellites he says he built and leases them and can make it so the military won't miss them.
He's willing to risk his life and cooperate with the Cape during the events of "Scales".
In Dice' he doesn't respond perfectly to nearly being killed but he is repeatedly trying to convince Dice to join him (and possibly have sex with him) and thinks he can do that. Also, when The Cape saves him from assassins, he says that he never forgets a debt that he owes, then, one Bait-and-Switch moment later, he says he'll make an exception and ducks for cover while sending his security guards to try and kill The Cape.
He does love his daughter to some extent and is trying to banish Chess from his mind, although whether for moral reasons or just too avoid being Stupid Evil and let him be a regular Corrupt Corporate Executive is a bit vague.
He has a Mob-Boss Suit Fitting with his associateScales and is genuinely interested in the suits.
He ends the series alive, scapegoating others, and still in control, even if there are some cracks in his empire and reputation.
Bastard
How much is Chess and how much is Fleming is unclear, but he engages in widespread corruption, mass arrests once he controls the police force, kills people to steal their work, sells arms, framers both good and bad people alike for his crimes at a moments notice, probably killed his wife, and drove away his daughter.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 28th 2022 at 6:42:02 AM
Tentative
to Lumina, Gregor, Tracey/Dice, Dio and Max.
to the Lady, tentative
to Savathûn and Fleming/Chess.
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@Scraggle, sorry to hear about yours and your dad's Covid, hoping you both get well soon. @Polarphantom Sorry to hear about your sister having Covid.
Edited by Derv0sB2 on Mar 28th 2022 at 9:27:07 AM
I finished and posted this write-up some time ago but it but it got buried under other discussion:
Narcos: Colonel Horacio Carillo is a colombian police officer and the eventual leader of the task force to bring down Pablo Escobar. Having lost dozens of partners at the hands of the Narcos, he has become utterly ruthless in his pursuit of them, being not above executing or torturing prisoners who don’t talk. Cunning and brutally efficient, he avoids Escobars spies and soon deals him multiple heavy blows from arresting his bookkeeper, to leading a strike team that kills his partner Gacha, to brutally interrogating and killing his cousin and right-hand Gustavo when he refuses to sell Pablo out. Despite the government initially exiling him to Spain for being too brutal, he‘s soon brought back for being the only man Escobar ever feared. A Frontline General genuinely concerned for the lives of his men, he never wavers in his quest to bring him down, calling him a coward to his face even with his last breath.
Feedback would be appreciated
Edited by Hardcorebatmanfan on Mar 28th 2022 at 10:02:18 AM
There's an active thread
discussing the pic in MagnificentBastard.A Song Of Ice And Fire, if anyone has any opinions or wants to contribute a better image.
Yes to Max and Queen. Abstain on Fleming.
I just had my electric shut off. So, I won't be here for a while and my EPs are on hold.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI don't know what the issue with Fleming / Chess?
He's pretty intelligent in both forms and he had control of the later for later series.
Even if we're arguing evil levels. Chess even legit didn't crash the train and actually stopped it showing he isn't that bad
Edited by miraculous on Mar 28th 2022 at 9:43:14 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."As a heads up for the thread someone decided to dispute the Aegon image. They are ignoring the discussion we had about symbolism to images for MB (which was even talked about in the last thread). On my phone right now and can’t grab the link but I encourage anyone who would like to go give their thoughts as I feel this was sneaky and disrespectful.
Here's the discussion
if folks wish to give some thoughts.
To say I feel this is incredibly disrespectful by Guma is an understatement. They have been involved in these discussions and instead of raising objections, they let it stay up and then do this.
Reading the EP, I'm getting the sense that he causes a lot of his own problems by pissing off his ostensible allies and has to be rescued by the Cape. On the otherhand he does end the season and series, with his empire in tact. And there is the thing of how much is chess and how much is Fleming. I don't know I'm abstaining.
I'm torn on the image. I think I agree with Guma that it's not a good one, and yet he also should've brought it up here. One of the things I find about this thread is that we aren't anywhere near as engaged with things like quotes and pics for pages as we are with EPs.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

Witch Queen and Max.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid