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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#72701: Mar 27th 2022 at 4:17:12 PM

Melinda the days been slow, I think you can post one or two more cape EPs. I also agree with Mir that maybe the writeups can be shortened.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 27th 2022 at 7:22:32 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#72702: Mar 27th 2022 at 4:27:02 PM

Thank you for the heads up to continue.

I will do my best to shorten them. I'm just not particularly good when it comes to making the call about what to leave out or not.

The Cape #3 (technically three and four but they're always grouped together)

Who are Goggles and Hicks?

Goggles (Pruitt Taylor Vince) and Hicks (Chad Lindberg) are two brothers with a Brains and Brawn dynamic who work as hitmen for The Tarot (a Carnival of Killers organization who Vince defeated another member of in an earlier episode). They are known as the Chariot. Goggles is a wheelchair-bound hacker and surveillance expert while Hicks is an apparently military-trained commando. Goggles meets clients while "the only people [Hicks] mets, he kills."

I'd also appreciate input on whether I should give them a joint write up or give each brother a write up or if one makes the cut but the other doesn't.

What do they do?

Their eponymous episode begins with them killing a man then meeting Fleming for their next job. Fleming gives them a Cape comic book to ID his target. Goggles is familiar with the work and excited by the near mint condition. He initially thinks Fleming wants them to kill one of the comic creators and asks if Fleming is sure, as it would be a shame to kill people that talented, but "a job is a job I suppose." When Fleming says he wants the Cape dead and his cape to study, Goggles accuses him of being unable to tell fiction from reality. Goggles says they don't rush, they intimately track and study subjects then kill them when the time is right, and they won't be rushed. An excited Goggles later compares himself and his brother to the Legion of Doom taking on the Super Friends and moans ho w there are no more good Saturday morning cartoons, and he blames the lack of cartoons and sugary cereal societal decay while Hicks mostly ignores him and doesn't know those shoes.

They decide to use Orwell as bait against the cape. They lure the cape, who has broken ribs from another job) and Orwell into a meeting by using the criminal Scales and making both the Cape and Scales think the other called the meeting. Hicks shoots a tracker dart at the Cape but id doesn't penetrate his cape until they try again.

They trail Vince and notice how he spends time at his family's old house while using he tracker to measure his blood rate and calling Vince a good physical subject besides his broken ribs (an eavesdropping Hicks hears him discuss his poor health at a diner). Goggles says there's noun killing someone without knowing them inside out. Hicks neither agues nor disagrees. They dig up info on the owner of the Faradya's house and recognize Vince from surveillance photos, being the first villains to penetrate his secret, although they decide to keep the secret once they kill him.

An armed drone (nicknamed the Bumblebee) attacks Vine and Orwell with Hicks controlling it its a video game console and the two only escape because of the cape and a tunnel interfering with the signal. After chase they corner the two in a church and Hicks dons black clothing and fas paint to go after them. H claims he doesn't need luck. Vince and Hicks brawl in the dark and Hicks is losing until Goggles (who causes a blackout) turns on the lights> Hicks survives a fall and quickly disappears before the Cap can find him. Goggles is upset when Hicks doesn't answer him on the radio and Vince and Orwell catch a defenseless Goggles in the van. Hicks leaps on the roof to fight them and retrieve his brother. They predict that Hicks is helpless without Goggles ("cut off the head and the body withers away").

However, Hicks meets Fleming with a Stans of silk form the Cape stuck to his knife, which he gives to Fleming. He ask for Fleming's help rescuing Goggles (saying "I need him back") and being confused about how to do so on his own. He's about to tell Fleming that Vince Faraday is the Cape when Fleming insults him and Goggles and then fires them and the Tarot as a whole. He then approaches Vince and Orwell in their favorite diner, calling Vince by his full name and demanding they return Goggles. He says Vince isn't hard to find and that he's only alive because they were fired "and you are no longer the job, although you may be again, someday, if the price is right." He offers Vince their computer discs with information on his hideout, family, medical condition, associates, and more. He says h and Goggles can keep secrets and will do so if Vince tells them where Goggles is. Vince says his code is refusing to help criminals but Orwell tells Hicks the prison that Goggles is being held in. Vince threatens to tear Hicks out if he ever returns to town but an unfazed Hicks leaves to break his brother out of Jail.

Magnificent

They take down victims all over the world. They are strongly loyal to each other. Goggles ins a good tactician and gadgeteer. Goggles has a friendly air and some respect for certain victims and is a Pop-Cultured Badass who is regretful (but not enough to refuse the job) when he thinks e's being hired to kill a writer he enjoys. Hicks is a Cold Sniper and combatant who views himself as helpless without Goggles but is good at adapting to plans and negotiating. He's also honest about how he might come back.

Bastard

They're hired killers who find some pleasure in getting to know who their victims are before the kill. Hicks is also generally unpleasant except around his brother and has a bit of creepiness to him even when making deals in a level-headed way.

Mitigating Factors

Goggles does yell helplessly when he's a captive of Vince and Orwell but it isn't the end of his story and he deserves some slack for being a guy in a wheelchair who's just fallen on his back after being captured and isn't sure if his brother has just been killed.

Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 4:32:56 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#72703: Mar 27th 2022 at 4:31:32 PM

  • Ice and Fire
    • Arthur Dayne, renowned as the finest knight of his age and the greatest swordsman to ever live. The Sword of the Morning who nevertheless enforced the despicable regime of King Aerys II, Arthur was responsible for routing the Kingswood Brethren by winning over the smallfolk and reducing the places the bandits could hide before personally facing and killing the monstrous Smiling Knight. Later assisting Prince Rhaegar and guarding Lyanna Stark at the Tower of Joy, Arthur would lead the fight against Eddard Stark's companions, almost slaying the young Stark lord in their ensuing duel.
    • Bael the Bard is a renowned king of the Free Folk. Upon being insulted by Lord Stark, Bael crept through the Wall and disguised himself as a bard whose songs won the heart of Winterfell. Falling in love with Lord Stark's daughter, Bael fled with her to hide in Winterfell's crypts for a year, before returning her and their newborn child to her room. Later leading an army south, Bael would face his own son in combat and was slain when he refused to battle with his own kin.
  • John Wick: Cassian, bodyguard to Gianna D'Antonio, is a confident and charismatic assassin who is an old acquaintance of John Wick. Upon the death of Gianna, Cassian instantly centers on John for revenge, intending on wiping out all responsible for his ward's death. Cassian hunts John to New York, matching wits, guns and blades with John and proving a match even for the other talented assassin.
  • Darksiders: Death, eldest and most powerful of the Four Horsemen, is one of the Firstborn of the Nephilim. Having helped his eldest brother Absalom destroy numerous worlds, Death led War, Fury and Strife from the Nephilim and joined the Charred Council to uphold the Balance, wiping the Nephilim out. Fighting countless battles since, Death shows no regard for honor or anything but victory, once using a plot to kill and revive War, or to deceive an opponent with a vision of his lost love to secure the victory. Deeply loving his siblings, Death sets out to clear War's name when he is accused of starting the apocalypse and to revive humanity to clear away War's crime. Ultimately facing a reborn Absalom, Death destroys his sibling once more and prepares to give his life to revive humankind before being revived by War breaking the final seals with Death prepared to face all of Creation at his brother's side.
  • Azincourt: Ghillebert, seigneur de Lanferelle, "The Lord Of Hell" is a brilliant soldier who leads the attacks on the enemies of France. Effortlessly outwitting numerous enemies and destroying the English archers, Lanferelle becomes aware of Nicholas Hook when Hook rescues Lanferelle's bastard daughter Melisande. Disapproving of her with an English archer, Lanferelle kills one of Hook's friends to provoke him and deliver a message, leading to a long enmity between them. Despite his strategic acumen, Lanferelle is taken hostage by Hook at Agincourt, where Hook's enemy Tom Perrill attempts to murder him. Learning the man had threatened Melisande, Lanferelle accepts a sword from Hook to kill Tom before honorably surrendering as Hook's hostage.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#72704: Mar 27th 2022 at 4:34:14 PM

By the way, when it comes to the Batman page we could possibly use this image I found some time ago that was approved and is currently on the image links page.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#72706: Mar 27th 2022 at 4:38:23 PM

[up][up]

Not bad, although I feel like there are better images of both him and other villains (the one from Batman Chronicles #12 of Ras reacting to the earthquake the causes No Man's Land and speculating Batman will join him in despair with his city gone comes to mind)

Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 4:39:29 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#72707: Mar 27th 2022 at 4:49:14 PM

Yes to Goggles and Hicks. I can help you with writeups going forward Melinda but oftentimes I notice a tendency to use parenthesis to add in information which isn't necessary to an MB writeup itself.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#72708: Mar 27th 2022 at 4:57:21 PM

[tup] to Goggles and Hicks

Changing to a [tdown] on the Lady (sorry for the confusion, I'm not great with names)

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#72710: Mar 27th 2022 at 5:03:36 PM

Sure to your duo, Melinda.

Any opinions on the Diego Brando quotes? So far only Ravok voted for these.

[down] I'm cool with it.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 27th 2022 at 2:12:23 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#72711: Mar 27th 2022 at 5:05:47 PM

Yes to Goggles and Hicks

Ehhh I'm still checking around for MB images for Batman so let's save that Ra's as a placeholder, I'm really not a huge fan of it but if it comes down to it we can use it, just gimme time to find some other suggestions to compare it against.

Speaking of, what do we think of this as a description for the Batman page:

Batman is known as one of the smartest heroes in the DC universe, and often faces a more superstitious and cowardly lot, but even the World's Greatest Detective can be stumped by certain genius, charming rogues. And sometimes, even the Dark Knight himself will tread far enough into questionable activity to be considered immoral.

Covers the usual while also detailing that a solid chunk of the current listings are of versions of Batman himself, lol. What do we think?

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#72712: Mar 27th 2022 at 5:09:35 PM

[tup]Goggles and Hicks. They have different enough skillsets and they aren't always working together enough (although that last bit is not by choice) for me to be in favor of two separate writeups.

It's fine Library, wasn't a big deal at all, I thought you meant Ellen.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 27th 2022 at 8:09:58 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#72713: Mar 27th 2022 at 5:11:04 PM

Well over three years ago, I made an EP on Savathûn from Destiny 2, and while it was initially accepted, we decided to ultimately cut the entry because it started tangling with a Complete Monster proposal that was rejected and there really wasn't much we could work with given Savathûn didn't make an on-screen appearance back then.

This has changed with 2021's Beyond Light and now 2022's The Witch Queen expansions.

Without further ado, let's reiterate who we are talking about:

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/savathuninfo1.jpg

Savathûn, the Witch Queen

One of the three top gods of the Hive pantheon, Savathûn is the smartest and most cunning of the three siblings (the others being Oryx the Taken King, who was slain back in the first game, and Xivu Arath the God of War, who has been expanding her influence on the Hive due to the storylines concerning Savathûn) as ordained by her Worm God's drive to constantly gain knowledge.

What has changed since the Forsaken expansion plotline? (Spoilers inbound)

This thread mostly remembers that Savathûn's MB arguments were based on her machinations inside the Dreaming City during the events of 2018's Forsaken DLC, what with exploiting the Dying Curse from Riven of a Thousand Voices that put the Dreaming City in a timeloop that would allow Savathûn's's forces to find a way into the Reef Awoken's homeworld and possibly achieve an infinite death tribute to overcome Savathûn's Worm's demands.

Savathûn's involvement in that plot was constantly thwarted due to the Guardian's efforts (translating into the "Shattered Throne" dungeon). The next time we get a mention of her is in Season of Opulence, where an artifact of hers, the Crown of Sorrow, turns out to be a trap meant to control its wielder (it was intended for Calus, but instead finds itself worn by a guinea pig, which in turn gives reason for the "Crown of Sorrow" raid); then Shadowkeep, where lore passages reveal that she had made contact with the Hive on the Moon (more specifically, the Spawn of Crota) in order to seemingly help them lure the Guardians to the Moon, when in reality she wanted the children of Crota (and by extension, Oryx's bloodline) to die out so that the Hive's succession line would boil down to only Savathûn and Xivu Arath, who were already vying for leadership since Oryx's final death.

Savathûn's next big move would come in Seasons of Arrivals, where she repeatedly tries to interfere with the Guardians and Eris Morn's attempts to commune with Darkness (or rather the fleet of Black Pyramids that arrived at the start of Season 11), even using Nokris (who somehow survived the events of Warmind and had no one to turn to, so he struck a bargain with Savathûn) as a mouthpiece. She ultimately fails when Nokris is slain, and the Darkness learns of her treachery and has her on the run from her own forces. One must remember that Savathûn was always finding a way to grow out of her servitude to the Worms, so her rebellion wasn't really made obvious until now.

For 2020's Beyond Light seasons up until 2021's Season of the Lost, we know that Xivu Arath has been taking advantage of the Darkness's disfavour with Savathûn to consolidate her own forces, but we didn't know what happened to the MIA Goddess of Cunning until the closing chapters of Season of the Splicer, where lore tabs and Osiris's suspicious behaviour would lead to the reveal at the start of Season 15 that, yes, Savathûn was impersonating Osiris. This grants a whole new perspective on the events that transpired from Seasons 12 to 15, given that "Osiris" was pretty much grooming Crow (actually Uldren Sov, whom we killed back in Forsaken, resurrected as a Guardian) like a mentor, while simultaneously prying at the tenuous alliances between the Vanguard and the Cabal (who got exiled from their homeworld after a catastrophic loss against Xivu Arath's invasion) as well as the Fallen (a new splinter called House of Light, led by Mithrax, who was a major background Fallen ally in prior expansions).

At the end of Season 15, Savathûn is finally exorcised from her Worm and escapes her confinement before Mara Sov and the Guardian even have a chance to do anything in the event she didn't hold her end of the bargain by freeing the real Osiris, but surprisingly stays true to her word leaves Osiris alive.

The Witch Queen (the expansion not the character - even more spoilers)

The expansion picks up some time after Savathûn's escape, with the eponymous Witch Queen showing up in her massive ship near Mars, a planet that was sealed off by the Darkness since the end of Season 11. This was a blatant attempt to lure the Guardians into her ship for her to show off her newfound powers over the Light. This sparks a chain of investigations in order to find out how Savathûn got a hold of the Light, which culminates in the big reveal via memory flashes that the Traveler itself resurrected Savathûn (who actually died shortly after Season 15's exorcism). Not only that, but our investigation also played in Savathûn's favour, as she now has regained the memories she lost when she was resurrected as a Lightbearer.

Savathûn's subsequent grand plan is to seal off the Traveler in her Throne World to protect it from the Witness (who appears to be the Darkness's most direct agent and the overall Greater-Scope Villain for the story), though this would come at the cost of the Guardians becoming powerless again like during the Red War (base game Destiny 2). She's ultimately foiled by the player's efforts (on top of a Villainous Breakdown upon learning that she, too, was manipulated by the Witness's Worms way back during the Hive's beginnings), and dies lamenting that she and you both tried to protect the Traveler in ways that would conflict with each other, and now with her out of the picture, only you can step up to challenge the Witness's arrival. However, her Ghost Immaru escapes, leaving open the possibility of Savathûn coming back.

Further runs of the Altars of Reflection show that, while it might be tinged with a bit of unreliability, Savathûn really did use her newfound powers over the Light to wrestle Mars away from the Witness, both as a show of power and a gift of goodwill to the Guardians. Running into anything related to the "Vow of the Disciple" raid lore also mentions how she used her Light powers to beat the Witness's First Disciple, Rhulk (who's a nasty piece of work), so hard that he's gone back to confining himself in his Pyramid.

Conclusion

This time, we have a solid grasp of Savathûn's story arc, and while she isn't gone forever, it's safe to say that the chain of events from late 2020 to early 2022 really cements her position as one of Bungie's most well-written villains yet; not thoroughly evil, but definitely thought-provoking.

I'd like a word count extension for the potential writeup given a lot has happened between 2018 and now, because I'm not sure a 250-character paragraph would be enough.

Paging frequent Destiny 2 editors ~Trocyte V, ~Arca, ~Altair Ibn La La La, ~Worst Otaku Ever, ~The Dark Mantis, ~The Nitpicking Troper, ~SFH and ~Commander Pacis for additional feedback on the EP.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on Mar 27th 2022 at 12:18:06 PM

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#72714: Mar 27th 2022 at 5:23:58 PM

[tup] to Gregor, Dice, Dio, Goggles and Hicks.

Switch to abstain on the Lady.

[up] Gonna read and vote on that tomorrow because I'm too sleepy to read through an EP right now.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#72715: Mar 27th 2022 at 5:41:27 PM

[tup] to the Cape villains

Now Mena Suvari has played both an MB and a CM

Edited by magnumtropus on Mar 27th 2022 at 12:41:59 PM

Idisagree Since: Jun, 2011
#72716: Mar 27th 2022 at 6:34:45 PM

[tup] to Diego Brando. I was wondering if Steel Ball Run had any other contenders since Funny Valentine is apparently too much of a bastard. Good to know it'll likely be an version of Dio (in a way).

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#72717: Mar 27th 2022 at 6:38:19 PM

Sandman is a maybe. Not sure he had the deeds, but he has the personality at least, though I was mostly focused on Diego. If anyone wants to tackle him, by all means do so.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#72718: Mar 27th 2022 at 6:40:30 PM

[tup] to the Witch Queen.

@Ano: are you planning to EP Rhulk on the other thread? (I got to catch up on Destiny 2)

Edited by G-Editor on Mar 27th 2022 at 9:41:56 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#72719: Mar 27th 2022 at 7:04:54 PM

Yes to the Witch Queen

Here's my penultimate The Cape entry. I'll post the Big Bad of the show early tomorrow. The Cape #4

Who is Max Malini?

Played by Keith David, Max leads the bank-robbing Carnival of Crime. He's always drinking wine but is a firm and cunning leader. He bonds with Vince while mentoring him, but her isn't willing to sacrifice his own money-making schemes to help Vince's agenda and once claims that he has an ulterior motive in giving Vince the Cape (which he once used himself as Legacy Character called Kozmo) and training him to be such a formidable force. Thi will b a little long since Max is in all ten episodes, although I skip some stuff.

What does Max do?

He runs a carnival (training escape artists and magicians) and when their customer base dried up, they keep practicing but turn to committing robberies with their skills. He and his gang find Vince Faraday injured in an explosion and hear his story (having him hit a few times when they don't like his answers. Max replies he's just using his stage voice when he's rebuked for shouting and says "When you were Chess, you were interesting, now your boring. Shoot him, take him to the desert and cut his fingers off." However he changes his mind when Vince offers him access to the alarm codes, personal schedules, and such for all of the places that Fleming takes money to protect. They commit robberies disguise as old ladies, with trained animals and more.

Vince finds the cape in Max's storage, wanting to use to to be a hero) and goads Max's pride into letting him have it despite the man's reluctance (or so it initially seems), agreeing to go through downplayed Training from Hell. Max also leis that the cape has been used by the escape artist Kozmo but this is a use of Exact Words as there have been many Kozmo's, including Max and the first was a murderous theif as were many others. Max is Id'd for the bank robberies and captured by Chess and his partner Scales. He is beaten and defiant but abruptly unties himself and vanishes in a puff of smoke. Although he's spotted running out the door and shot. He gets home and gives a Mentor Occupation Hazard specking urging Vince to know that one old man can make a difference. Then he realizes he isn't hurt that bad and won't die, and laments wasting the speech.

He also wants Vince not to see his family, telling him it's too risky and questioning if Vince is ready to use the cape. When Gregor Molotov shows up Max expresses shame about what Gregor (and to a lesser extent Max himself) did with the cape and Denis he is training Vince to be new Kozmo, saying the villainous Legacy Character "ended with me" and "I killed the unkillable." He's nice to Orwell when she shows up while suggesting she could join the carnival, or at least the actual carnival acts. He may have betrayed Gregor but also claims he tried to help him avoid succumbing to his darkness and fears what he di and tries pt protect Raia during a fight with Gregor. He seems proud when Vince own't kill Gregor but does worry about the risk of sparing him.

In the episode Scales Max pulse a Train Job during a high society gambling event on a train and refuses to pause it to help Vince when he's getting beaten and nearly thrown off the train by Fleming's sometimes enemy and sometimes ally Scales. He and the rest of the crew also refuse to stop the heist earlier on even though it might jeopardize Vince's plan to celar his name by having Scales expose Chess as Fleming (which fails). Vince confronts Max afterward and talks about how the carnival puts guns in people's faces to steal money they worked and saved for. Unapologetically, Max says "And this is news to you?" Vince notes that he forgot it because Max has been helping him get what he wants and that it sometimes seems like Max is invested in his mission. Vince expresses certain belief that sooner or later their opposing views will put them on "opposite sides of a loaded gun." Max just smiles and says that they should enjoy their time together until that day comes, but looks morose once Vince leaves.

He has slightly less to do in the next several episodes in terms of moving his character forward. A flashback in one episode shows Max was considering giving Vince the cape form the moment he harden inured Vince was being brought in by his people and engineered Vince finding it. Max shows alarm in another episode when he and his people realize Vince is pushing his body too hard and making himself vulnerable. In the finale is Helprin him protect Vince's Dirty Cop former friend Voyt and his family escape being killed by Fleming and maybe get him to expose Fleming. He shows some genuine protectiveness of them. He tells his comrade Ruvi, who wants to cut and run, that helping the innocent and downtrodden isn't what he does. He claims that he has been training Vince for reasons of his own related to someone named "Devereaux" this has an impact on Ruvi and he expresses skepticism about Max's honesty but stays. If Max is telling the truth, it is unclear who Devereaux is and ho morally gray going after him would be. He does protect the Voyt family, and says he likes a good vanishing act as he spirits Voyt's wife and kids to safety. The series final scene is him drinking and talking with Vince.

Magnificent

He's a cunning mentor figure, brave, loyal to his friends and (probably) has a lot of standards and compassion.

Bastard

He won't sacrifice a heist for Vince's mission or safety, may just be using Vince and it's possible his past rmentorship of Gregor wasn't as innocent as he paints it.

AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#72720: Mar 27th 2022 at 7:05:23 PM

[up][up] Writing Rhulk as CM seems feasible with all the musing he does in lore tabs and the Preservation post-raid mission, but I don't think I'll be the one to do it.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on Mar 27th 2022 at 10:05:33 AM

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#72721: Mar 27th 2022 at 8:57:23 PM

Sorry was working at my job today, bit of a hectic day in the theater.

[tup] Goggles and Hicks, and Max. I remember The Cape very well. One of the few shows I liked that it was one of the few superhero shows that came out of the boom that felt one like one.

Sorry about the mix-up with The Lady/Ellen. I was doing this all by memory, haven't watched the movie in several years though I re-watch it since it's on Tubi and Pluto.

And who did Mena Suvari play as a monster?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#72722: Mar 27th 2022 at 8:58:16 PM

Hey sorry guys I missed this week, will do a double next. Yes to Savathûn with her having appeared and Max as well, good work!

[up] Well thank you for being honest about that but a definite no until it's looked into more thoroughly and please don't do that again.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 27th 2022 at 11:58:57 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#72723: Mar 27th 2022 at 9:14:12 PM

Yes to Goggles, Hicks, and Max.

I got some more coming from another Adult Swim show. This time it's the horror comedy drama Death Metal sensation Metalocalypse. I've got 3 I feel good about, but if anyone else has seem the show I'm happy to throw around ideas.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#72724: Mar 27th 2022 at 9:14:29 PM

Here's two more. I worked hard to keep the writer significantly under 200 words, although Hicks' is around 180. If Max and Chess get voted up there's might be longer but they're both in every episode.

  • The Cape;
  • "Goggles & Hicks"
    • Goggles is one half of the Sibling Team of hired assassins known as “The Chariot.” He is a wheelchair-bound hacker and gadgeteer with a fondness for superhero fiction and is intrigued to find himself pursuing a real-life costumes vigilante on Fleming's behalf. He is resolute in getting inside his targets heads and learning about them before his brother Hicks makes the kills. He arranges a fake underworld meeting to draw out the Cape and put a tracker on him and through this, quickly discovers Vince's true identity and who his family is. He decides to keep Vince's secret but still is intent on killing him, and almost succeeds in helping his brother corner and kill Vince. Goggles never loses his cheery confidence except when he thinks his brother is in danger and then is left lying helpless on his back during a fight.
    • Hicks is the brother and partner of Goggles, acting as the duo's sniper, drone controller, and close quarters combatant. Hicks lacks Goggle's affability and spends most of the episode acting as a quiet observer or The Heavy, although he isn't quite skilled enough to beat Vince. Contrary to others opinions, Hicks is a formidable force even without Goggles once his brother is captured. A distraught Hicks goes to Fleming for help, intending to offer him a thread from the cape that is stuck to his knife and the information about the Cape's identity. Before he can mention the later, Fleming fires him, so Hicks instead approaches Orwell and Vince. He makes it clear that he could bring down Vince with the digital file Goggles made about him. Instead, he trades it, and a promise of silence, to Vince for the location of Goggles so he can break his brother out of jail. He then calmly departs after saying they may cross paths again if anyone else pays the brothers to go after Vince.

Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 9:16:53 AM

magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020

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