During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Oh hey this video got enough votes
.
Could someone submit it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I found this on Chris Mc Lean's Total Drama character page:
- Magnificent Bastard: He reads his contestants like a book, even the villains, and he uses this insight to make sure the show stays as dramatic as possible. As well as to generally mess with them.
Aside from this being a YMNV trope, I am pretty sure Chris is way too sadistic.
Chris is definitely too sadistic.
Work
The Cape is a Short-Runner superhero Reconstruction show featuring Vince Faraday, a cop turned private security contractor. He discovers that his employer, Peter Fleming is the masked crime boss known as Chess, only to end up being framed for being Chess himself and presumed dead in an explosion. Vince survives and is found by a group of circus performers turned bank robbers. They agree to help Vince against Fleming if he uses the information he got working for Fleming to help them with robberies (although only one episode after the pilot features said robberies). They also give Vince a light yet bulletproof cape with several unique properties (it makes a good whip, can be used for stealthy means, etc.). He uses it to become a superhero modeled after his son's comic books while fighting Fleming, his associates, and a few other villains. Vince also works with Orwell (Summer Glau) a mysterious blogger with lots of resources who is out to expose Chess. Vince's his wife and son go on with their lives while he watches and can't tell them he's alive.
Most episodes have an Antagonist Title. Fleming/Chess claims to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but It's debatable and his personality can be grating (plus he's insane with split personalitis) so I'm going to do some Villain of the Week characters and then probably cap it off with an Ambiguously Evil mentor.
Who is Gregor Molotov/Kosmo the Unkillable?
Escape artist Gregor is an associates of the Carnival of Crime and a former owner of the eponymous cape. It's hard to get a feeling on his true backstory and personality due to different interpretations of the same events by Gregor and his old mentor Max, but Gregor does show some psychopath traits. He shows up looking to reclaim it in the third episode and is willing to use deadly force to get what he wants. He's "left a trail of bodies from Moscow to Berlin", mainly using the cape as his weapon. He was arrested for murdering a woman and initially Denis it years later, saying a woman is a thing of beauty, but later admits he did do it and vaguely claims it was an act of love and mercy.
What does he do?
Gregor's first scene (in the episode "Kozmo") shows him have a medical examination in a Russian prison that the warden vows he won't escape despite his previous Prison Escape Artist record. He ifs unflinching when threatened with execution if he tries.Lead away in a straight jacket., escapes from his cell after being locked in, picking the lock with a wax key, and kills two guards outside before escaping down a sewer hole he' supposedly need to dislocate every bone on his body with. He writes Kozmo in the guards blood on the wall.
He barges into the carnival practicing their art, cheerfully compliments and greats Max with a hug but complies and demands the cape when Max says to Dispense With The Pleasentries. Max claims to have lost it. Gregor says Max promised him the cape would change his life wen they were friends and he's thought about it for twenty years in prison until his ultimate escape. He says he won't leave without it. Max tells Vince the cape drew something ugly out of hsi former student so he took it back from Gregor.
When he shows up in town Vince tries to shadow Gregor but loses him when Gregor gives his hat and jacket to someone else. Gregor gets into a car game with some shady types, winning their money and asking for information on the cape, offering the poker chips he won from them foe payment. He learns there is indeed someone using the cape while obscuring their real name and is surprised that he's a vigilante and not a criminal. Shaking hsi head in disappointment at Max, he suddenly [[Death Dealer kills the other players and their security guard by throwing playing cards into their throats).
The next morning, Gregor shows up at a food vendor's seconds after Vince leaves, implying he's following him. Then e shows up at the carnival where Orwell is visiting and kisses her hand before demanding to talk to Max and showing off his contortionist skills, boasting that straightjackets fall off him "like a prom queen's dress." When Max discusses his potential Gregor quit prison is a career-killer "So is lack of discipline" says Max, something Gregor concedes. He flirts with Orwell and Raia the acrobat and does a palm reading for Orwell which is accurate even though they're seemingly strangers, although he seems to know she's being deceptive. He talks about how people like Jack the Ripper supposedly wore the cape and when Max dismisses this asks why Max wouldn't let him have it. He claims to be reformed and entitled to the Cape although not very seriously. He gets mad to realize Max gave the cape to a cop as he and Vince talks, then makes "Not So Different" Remark and accuses Max of betraying him to the authorities twenty years ago. He acknowledges his soul is "already lost" and suggests Vince could save his by giving up the cape. When Vince point out his murders could get him sent back to the prison he escaped for Gregor says he will ever go back there then vanishes in a puff of smoke.
Gregor abducts Max and his lieutenants Raida, Rollo, and Ravi, then goes onto a stage disguises as Max (by having Max's top hat pulled down over his face before revealing to the ret of the carnival and some oblivious tourists that he hasMax in a drowning tank and the others tied up in front of a tiger cage. He says if Max had let him keep the cape, he wouldn't let his master suffer like this.The Cape appears and frees Max while Orwell saves the others. Gregor snatches the cape from Vince. He calls Vince a child with a gun who had no idea to use the cape and revels in how it still fits. He says Gregor is dead and to call him Kozmo. He then was Vince that Max will turn on him (which is kind of true, to at least a limited extent). Gregor insists Max was jealous of his potential while Max says he tried help Gregor all those years ago. He mocks Orwell that during her palm reading, he left out that no one will miss her once she's gone after restraining her with the cape. He calls the cape an extension of his body, like a snake but Vince nearly chokes him with it after turning the tables with his strength. They deliver Gregor to the authorities but Max says no prison can hold him and if he lives he will be back (which comes to nothing once the show is Cut Short).
Magnificent
He's a Prison Escape Artist with some impressive feats. He's capable of taking out people like his old mentor Max and Rollo the strongman ben before retrieving the cape. In his own mind, he has a legitimate right to the cape and he feels that Max betrayed him and is denying him the only thing left he cares about. Still, he does try to politely negotiate to get the cape back before resorting to violence even though his politeness comes and goes and it's very easy to tell that he's more Faux Affably Evil than Affably Evil. He also seems to recognize a few times that he is a ruined soul and not the man he used to be.
Bastard
He has a dark and bloody history, sometimes kills just when he feels like it rather than for money, and taunts people he's fighting.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 6:02:12 AM
Hey I remember this show.
Gregor
Who else are you doing. Max Mailini (Keith David), Goggles and Hicks we're the most memorable ?
Edited by miraculous on Mar 27th 2022 at 6:05:14 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."![]()
I am going to do Max, Goggles and Hicks, hopefully either this afternoon or Tuesday and also plan on doing Dice in about an hour.
I also kind of wanted to do Scales but is self-control is a big issue and there's the fact how he need Vinc to spell it out for him that Chess and Vince aren't th same guy even when he met Chess again after Vince supposedly died.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 6:36:44 AM
I've noticed that a lot of EP's tend to be preceeded with "thanks to [xyz troper] for giving me this candidate", without any sign of a discussion on the thread or the "To do list". How does that work? I know that it is done via PM's, but is it the EP'er who requests it from xyz troper asking "Got a good candidate?", or does xyz troper PM the EP'er saying "Here's a good candidate"?
Yes to the John Wick candidates and the Gregor
Edited by magnumtropus on Mar 27th 2022 at 1:56:10 PM
The Cape #2
Who is Tracey "Dice" Jarrod? Played by Mena Suvari, Tracey is the antagonist o the episode "Dice". She is a mathematical savant who can use numbers to tell the future and wants revenge on Fleming for killing her father and using her mathematical equations for himself.
What does she do?' Tracy is introduced in a flashback as a tween, in a typical girly bedroom, tossing a pair of dice on the ground and always studying them and predicting the correct numbers that will come up.Her father and Fleming watch as Mr. Jarrods says her world is based on quantum mechanics and probabilities and lets her see thee future. Dr Jarrods dismsisvley notes she has connection issues and some sociopathic tendencies like many savants and says from her movements on the video feed that she can even predict that they're talking about her right now. When Fleming meets her, she accurately predicts Fleming will kill Dr. Jarrods, showing some concern. Fleming assuages Dr. Jerrods with a joke (causing him to foolishly discount the warnings) and Tracey warns Fleming "and then I'm going to kill you."
Ten years later, Fleming has killer her father and her made a computer algorithm to tell the future (even tauntingly named T.R.A.C.E.). He says it can be used for the stock market and to track crimes before they happen. He also wants to use the program against The Cape and Orwell. Tracey is seen watching, wearing dice necklaces and refusing to stand and clap. Meanwhile, Vince hopes to pin one of Chess's murders, like Tracey's dad, on Fleming. Tracey attends another flaming part, fancily dressed and her verbal tics of moving her fingers and mouthing numbers while making predictions make him have a sense of deja vu. She notices this, smirks, they trade appeasing looks and sh walks over. Fleming looks a bit unnerved. She calls herself Dice, tells him a number to pick (after palming the real dice), which he does, then leaves as the dice explode when h throws them. It's a crowded room and people are thrown back by the explosion and Fleming is injured but no one is killed.
Watching videos, Vince and Orwell see her calmly walking through the most secure areas of the casino due to happening to know exactly when guard will be distracted or looking away. Vince ID's her form the tapes and initially approves of what she's doing (upsetting Orwell, who is secretly Fleming's daughter). She also points out since Tracye knows Fleming is Chess, maybe he can use her to clear his name. Tracey has an apartment under her own name and has mad scribbling in her room including "God is the Dice" and a conspiracy web. She appears form behind them, takes Orwell hostage and knows when Orwell is about to escape, knocking her out. She runs and Vince chases her as she turns on steam and such. Vince says that he hates Fleming's guts but can't let her kill him, so she says "Then you die." She calls the number s she has beautfiful and says Fleming is turning them into something ugly. She denies the existence of justice but accepts chaos. She has turned on steam and shoots near it to make flames erupt and disorient Vince. She calls him a blind spot she didn't see coming and says it turns her on, reminds her she's not God, and makes her a bit sorry they can't work together. She then says "my ride's here' as police arrive to art her, which she anticipated. The Cape has to run.
Handcuffed, Tracey is brought into a restaurant to see Fleming by his private cops and analyses things like the chandelier. He has her released and they sit down. She's very nonchalant and ask for her makeup compact She uses it to shine light in a bartender's eye and make him drop some glasses. This makes Fleming turn and Dice rolls a quarter under the table on the ground. She tells Fleming "next time I won't miss" but not to take it personally. Amused, he agrees it's an "occupational hazard" and she compliments his competence. She compares him to Julius caesar in his sense of security.
The rolling quarters makes a janitor bend over in a closet and accidentally turn on a water faucet which triggers some electrical issues. Fleming finally She says he's disappointed he doesn't remember her even though "you patented my brain" and he finally connects her to the Jerrods and asks if they can get past hsi murder of her father. She demands the T.R.A.C.E. technology and he mockingly gives her a tablet with it but says more are in production and in twelve months T.R.A.C.E. will be as common as a toaster. The electrical issue then makes the chandelier fall as she dives away while Fleming only survives due to the Cape. She then spends tow hours on a rooftop staring at Fleimng's corporate headquarters, analyzing it with her mind. Tracey arrives at the party in a Lady in Red dress and approaches Fleming who makes a We Can Rule Together speech that she rejects, saying she will destroy him, his company, and his new computers and that his "town of greed" is his coffin and she has filled an elevator with propane and is sending it up. Fleming mocks her as a human guineau pig for her father, which clearly upsets her. He admits he has feelings for her but will kill her if he needs to and "you wouldn't last five minutes with the real me." She pulls a lighters from a Victoria Secrets Compartment to trigger the propane as Fleming stands near the elevator but the Cape snatches it away. Fleming's men fight the Cape but the Cape dos blow up the research with the propane gas once the floor is evacuated. Orwell punches and handcuffs Tracey as she flees down a stairway and leaves her for the police, although it's never revealed if they do catch her off if they're able to hold her.
Magnificent She can make a Rupe Goldberg Device form natural elements just by making a few random moves. Her motives are fairly sympathetic and she shows some admiration for the hero. She also predicts Fleming is bad news just by looking at him.
Bastard/Bitch She refuses to cooperate with anyone who doesn't want Fleming dead, it's hard to care if she hates Fleming more because of T.R.A.C.E. or her father's death (which she might have been able to prevent if she'd used her skills to her full potential). She is willing to endanger innocent people to kill Fleming (although not too much, as in theory she could have made a more powerful bomb for the dice that would have definitely killed Fleming and innocents if she wanted to) and has ab it of a God complex that she tries to remind herself isn't real.
Mitigating factors Her first attempt to kill Fleming is a bit lackluster but she improves with practice.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 7:42:43 AM
I'll save write up the others soon but won't post them until Monday or (if that would also be accessible) five or six hours from now. Normally, I gues I'm just naturally resistant to putting stuff off for a day because it increases the risk of an an accidental file deletion and stuff like that. I've got butterfingers (as you may be Abel to tell from my typos) and sometimes hit cut instead of copy, plus I sometimes use notes instead of word because word messs up the kinds of quotes that TV tropes prefer.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 7:58:10 AM
In hindsight, maybe Fleming/Chess might count afterward but it's too tough of a call for me to make.
Also, I can withhold one or both of my other E Ps today (and feel obliged to after the Ten Terrors incident last week) but if the thread is moving slowly enough I would like to post one or both of them later on, so let me know if I can.
Heya, popping in for a bit - I still haven't beaten Elden Ring but I read Lighty's sorted that out so I'll be back soonish. Friday, specifically so we can discuss the first game to sell a trillion copies and get a 101 on Metacritic. But first:
Yes to Zen-Aku, which is why I came here. Thank you mir!
Yes to Lumina as well, whom I considered and am glad to see up. Glad someone else saw her potential. Well that's 3 for 3 for the XIII Trilogy/Lightning Saga. And only one game in the Fabula Crysta Novalis sub franchise has no MB's written up.
Yes to the Lady. I watched that film years ago and I'm always happy to upvote more Female MB's.
And yes to the Cape Duo.
I'm sure I'm missing some votes, but you guys seem to be doing fine.
Get well soon Scraggle! My sister got Covid herself. I'm alright, but I hate that all my loved ones seem to have got it at some point or another. At least my mum avoided it. So that's good.
![]()
Fair point. Rewatching most of the episodes this weekend did remind me that Fleming is more impressive than I thought. I guess I feel duty-bound to post him for consideration but it still might be problematic.
Also, I'll be saying a prayer for you and your dad, Scraggle.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 27th 2022 at 11:23:27 AM
EDIT: Aye to the John Wick candidates and abstaining on the Lady. My best to you and your families, Polar and Scraggle.
Alright... This is a candidate I'm really iffy about (been thinking about him for months), but let's deal with him right away.
Dio Brando/DIO's counterpart in the rebooted universe. With a somewhat similar tragic past, if a slightly better one, that led him to a different path altogether, if one of villainy for most of his life.
Initially abandoned to drown in a river by his parents, Diego would've died if it wasn't for his mother, who changed her mind and decided to save him. Washed away by the river, they were found and rescued by a worker who gave Diego's mother work in a farm. There, as he grew up, Diego developed a talent with horses, while his mother instilled in him a strong sense of dignity.
Shit got out of hand when the worker felt a bit entitled and demanded sexual favors from Diego's mom. She refused, and shit went out of hand for her and her son from then on. And as nobody did shit to help them out, she succumbed to tetanus. Swearing revenge on the common people who ignored his and his mother's plight, Diego swore to climb the echelons of society no matter what, becoming a famous jockey and also briefly married an elderly weathly woman who died six months later. Rumors claimed Dio poisoned her to get her Benjamins.
Registering for the Steel Ball Run race, Diego shows his reputation wasn't for show, analyzing his opponents' horses and their movements to adapt to them, allowing him to reach the third place in the first stage (moved up to second due to Julius Caesar "Gyro" Zeppeli receiving a penalty), only taken by surprise by Gyro's Spin and Jonathan "Johnny" Joestar's presence, one of the few jockeys of Diego's caliber.
Reaching the first place in the second stage, Diego is attacked by Dr. Ferdinand in the third stage and turned into a dinosaur by Ferdinand's Stand Scary Monsters. After Dr. Ferdinand's defeat and death, Diego snatches one of the Holy Corpse's Eyes, thus keeping Scary Monsters and later on getting involved in the search for the Holy Corpse Parts.
After reaching the third place in the third stage, Diego returns towards the end of the fourth stage, looking for the location of the next Corpse Part, though Johnny and Gyro are looking for the same one. Warning the two to back off unless they want to die, Diego ultimately engages them, combining his skills as a genius jockey and his Stand : staying ahead of them by taking the most optimal course to reach the Corpse Part while waiting for Johnny and Gyro to make a mistake (such as Gyro's horse Valkyrie having a off-rhythm breath) and turning the fleas on his horse Silver Bullet into dinosaurs attacking Valkyrie's eyes in order to slow Gyro down. That being said, Johnny and Gyro ultimately manage to outsmart him and injure Silver Bullet, defeating Dio. The latter still manages to complete the fourth stage at the 54th place, but not without planning revenge.
Contacting Funny Valentine, Dio makes a deal with him : he gets the mayorship of Manhattan Island in exchange for selling Valentine his Left Eye Corpse Part + the Corpse Parts he plans to steal from Johnny and Gyro. When Valentine still shows reluctance, Diego manages to convince him to accept the deal by revealing he knows the existence of the traitor who's been hindering Valentine's plans. Diego also asks for a subordinate who's also a Stand User, well aware that Silver Bullet is still injured and will take time to recover, making it harder for Diego to catch up. Teaming up with Sandman, Diego puts to good use his and his partner's shared abilities to send dinosaurs with varied sound effects after Johnny and Gyro, defeating Gyro and nearly taking down Johnny if it wasn't for the latter learning about the Golden Rectangle. Dio slipped away before Sandman was killed by Johnny though.
Laying low from there one to allow Silver Bullet to heal and rest, Diego keeps his end of the deal by informing Valentine's subordinate – after learning that they acquired Johnny and Gyro's Corpse Parts – that the traitor Valentine is looking for is a woman weighting 51 kg (which Diego figured out by looking at Johnny's horse Slow Dancer's footprints by noticing the horse carried more weight han usually).
Rescuing Magent Magent after he was left for dead, Dio loosely works with him against Wekapipo, leaving him with a dinosaur to assist him, and thus eavesdropping on Wekapipo and learning about Lucy Steel's involvement in the search for the Holy Corpse Parts.
Tracking down Lucy, Diego infiltrates the Independence Hall by assassinating a guard and taking his uniform. Noticing Valentine going somewhere without his bodyguards and Lucy being transported elsewhere, Dio figures out that Valentine has her in his hands. Coming up with the conclusion that his best chance to stay ahead is to kill Valentine, Diego decides to follow him, hoping to figure out Valentine's Stand ability before trying to assassinate him.
Aware that Wekapipo is following him, Diego decides to come closer to Valentine before leaping on a roof, hoping to trick Wekapipo into coming across Valentine and engage him, which would allow Diego to observe Valentine's Stand in action. When Wekapipo unexpectedly shoots him, Diego shoots him back but upon noticing Wekapipo on the other side of the building, realizes he shot Johnny instead. Sensing Valentine's scent, Diego realizes Valentine knew he was the infiltrated guard and lured him here and realized the whole confusion is due to Valentine's Stand.
Convincing Wekapipo to team up with him, Dio ends up fighting Valentine with his newfound ally, but is sent to an alternate universe by Valentine's Stand Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap (D4C), half of his body stuck halfway through the universes while Valentine also steals Diego's Left Eye Corpse Part.
Cue D4C's Never the Selves Shall Meet ability kicking in, with Diego and his counterpart from the alternate universe nearly fatally fusing and and obliterating each other. Which would've happened had Diego not sent his dinosaurs look for the universe's Johnny and lure him here, leading to this Johnny shooting Valentine and forcing him to flee.
Using his legs still in the base world to send a message to Wekapipo, Diego also tells the alternate Wekapipo to come closer, getting himself caught between them and thus triggering D4C's ability, allowing Diego to fully come back to the original universe at the cost of both Wekapipo's lives. While he lost his Corpse Part, Dio has fully figured out how D4C works and now can go and finish off Valentine.
After a short scuffle with Hot Pants, Diego agrees to team up with her against Valentine : he agrees to leave her the Holy Corpse and she'll use its resources to give Dio Valentine's position, political power and give him his estranged father's location (the latter whom, well, Dio is understandably eager to get his revenge on).
Catching up with Valentine, Dio and Hot Pants give each other the information they have and manage to see through Valentine's traps and strategies, come up with combat strategies to keep up with him (such as slamming a door on their alternate counterparts when Valentine send them against them, trying to instantly kill Valentine, trying to avoid putting him between two things which could trigger D4C, Hot Pants using her Stand to disguise Dio as a Valentine when the latter summons many alternate Valentines in order to confuse them). When Valentine tries to jump through a window in the hopes of putting himself between the broken glasses to trigger D4C, Diego pushes the glass away from Valentine and splits him open.
However, a strand of Valentine's hair, by chance, ends up stuck under the wheels, allowing Valentine to use D4C to go to another universe to survive, but not before dragging Diego underneath, resulting in the latter being split in half.
That being said, Diego just as the time to consider himself the winner under the belief he instantly killed Valentine, before expiring.
Diego isn't as hammy as his original counterpart, and is generally something of a Jerkass. But he isn't devoid of noble and goofy qualities, making a bad joke that made even Gyro cringe, complimenting Johnny's skill and advising Johnny and Gyro to rest in a village nearby with him for a night and even showing basic decency once he gets involved in the search for the Corpse Parts by warning Johnny and Gyro to back off before he starts attacking. Combine that with his valid Freudian Excuse and I think we're good.
He isn't called a genius jockey for nothing either. He puts himself in excellent places by analyzing the competition's horses and adapting to their situations (something he also uses in combat as seen with his fight against Johnny and Gyro for a Corpse Part), he makes good use of his Stand in attack, support and infiltration and figures out D4C's abilities by observing them. Gyro and Johnny come to the conclusion Valentine's Stand must be damn good if it managed to kill Dio, and Valentine himself notes it was a close call, and has enough respect for Diego's ambition that by the time of his death, he summons an alternate Diego to finish his job.
Now, I'm not saying Diego is a perfect example of an MB. He's arrogant (and it does initially bites him in the ass such as when Gyro used the Spin for example in the first stage), often expresses shock when shit doesn't goes out his way and his first fight with Johnny and Gyro for the Corpse Part ends with him being Out-Gambitted, in disbelief and having a Villainous Breakdown. That being said, he recovers well enough for these (after his VB, Diego is next seen with a neutral expression that expresses no more than Tranquil Fury and he regains his cool later on) and even adapts to these unexpected situations to an extent.
The Diego/Johnny/Wekapipo vs. Valentine fight is essentially a big Gambit Pileup that shows Diego's adaptability. Dio follows Valentine and tries to trick him into fighting Wekapipo but Valentine was luring Diego there and tries to confuse him with D4C, but Diego realizes Valentine used his Stand and teams up with Wekapipo, but Valentine manages to trap Diego between two universes and tries to kill him with his alternate counterpart, but Diego lured Johnny there to shoot Valentine and forcing him to flee, but Valentine fled with Diego's Corpse Part, but Dio figured out D4C's ability as originally planned and thus has enough intel to try to end him for good.
Pass.
The characters Diego had to confront were Johnny Joestar, Gyro Zeppeli, Hot Pants and Funny Valentine, respectively. Now, the first two managed to defeat him but he recovered from these defeats, he came close to a Mutual Kill with the third before agreeing to team up with her and he nearly killed the latter who essentially only survived by chance.
Worked with Funny Valentine, attempted to kill Johnny Joestar and Gyro Zeppeli once they got in the way of his goals to obtain the corpse. Even when he started working with Johnny, Gyro and Wekapipo against Valentine, he left said Wekapipo to die to D4C's effects in order to return to the main universe and even his Heel–Face Turn and his team up with Hot Pants is heavily due to self-interest and its implied he still plans on seizing the Corpse for himself.
Redemption Promotion, while arguably a case here, doesn't hurts his bastard points in any way or form.
Not remotely. Pretty much a saint compared to pretty much any of his counterparts (Part 1-6 DIO Brando, Alternate Diego "Dio" Brando, Heaven Ascension DIO) or the worst Part 7 villains (such as the ex-soldier). Combine that with his somewhat valid Freudian Excuse, the basic decency he's capable of showing - first telling Johnny and Gyro to back off before he settles on attacking them - and the unusual amount of worry he shows for Hot Pants when fighting Valentine with her.
Not as far as I could see.
Up to you guys.
- JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Steel Ball Run: Diego "Dio" Brando, while ruthless, is completely devoid of his original counterpart's viler qualities. A genius jockey who swore revenge on society for his mother's death, Diego entered the Steel Ball Run, analyzing the competition's horses and adapting to their condition. After stealing a Holy Corpse Part and Dr. Ferdinand's Stand Scary Monsters, Diego got involved in the search for the Holy Corpse Parts, working for himself, then for Funny Valentine and finally with the heroes, switching sides as it suited his interests. Whether good, evil or neutral, Diego proved to be as good with Scary Monsters as he was with horses, using it offensively, as support — in tandem with Sandman's Stand – or even for infiltration purposes. Ultimately teaming up with Johnny Joestar, Wekapipo and later on Hot Pants against Valentine, Diego, despite Valentine's efforts to lure and outsmart him, saw through the latter's strategies, adapting to them and figuring out Valentine's Stand ability, later on doing his best with Hot Pants to prevent Valentine from using it, ultimately nearly killing him.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 27th 2022 at 2:58:40 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Yeah to the Cape ones thus far
My only real hesitation on Diego over the years has been his ending and how pitiful it comes off that he's beaten and dying yet thinks he's won and redeemed himself, buuuut it's got poignancy to it and it's nowhere near as callously dismissive as, say, Jobin from Part 8 who spends 90% of the story looking to be this trope only to get easily murdered by the true villain and promptly forgotten about by the story lol, so I think I'll say sure to Diego here.
This has gotta be a rare case of a character counting for MB, then an alternate version of the same character in the same story counting for CM.
Edited by Ravok on Mar 27th 2022 at 12:36:52 PM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

Figured. I didn't expect anyone in Rocky outside of MAYBE characters in Creed to count.